ところで、ところに

Hello,
I have just been studying these grammar points, mainly from Try! N3.
I’m not sure I completely understand which should be used when

試合時間が残り1分を切ったところで、ゴールを決まられてまけてしまった。

If I were to translate this sentence it would mean something like “just as /at the exact moment when there was one minute of the match remaining, a goal was scored and we lost”.

However this sentence:

夏休みで家族とのんびりしているところに、会社から呼び出した電話がかかってきた

I think this would mean “As I was relaxing with my family during the summer break, a phone call came from my company”

Similarly this sentence:

お湯がぐつぐつとふっとうしているところに、めんを入れてください

This would mean “as the hot water is boiling, please add the noodles”.

I’m not sure I understand when one should use に or で、 but comparing these sentences my understanding is:

ところに = Setting the general scene or situation when an event happens
ところで = Specifies an exact moment in time where something happens

Am I correct in that assumption? I’ve read a few different things online and I’m not sure I grasp the concept properly

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Thanks for this thoughtful question, and apologies for not noticing it sooner.

First of all, just to reassure you a bit, this is definitely a rather subtle point (and the sort of thing that even natives might have some difficulty explaining in a concise manner), so don’t feel too discouraged if it’s not completely clicking at first.

With this particular distinction, I think it may help for you to think in terms of what sort of event or action follows the ところに/ところで.

I’m going to link a page I found in Japanese (intended for native Japanese teachers) that has some good examples and explanations of the differences between these expressions:

(16)マラソンランナーはゴールに到着したところで、倒れてしまった
(17)林さんに電話をかけようとしたところに、その林さんから電話がかかってきた
(18)夜道を歩いていたところを、誰かに頭を殴られた

To summarize what the author of the article is saying in Japanese (though I encourage you to also give a try reading it for yourself), note how (16) sets some kind of scene (by establishing some sort of action or change), and then describes what happened at that point in time, similar to your soccer game example also using ところで.

In contrast, with (17) and your phone example, something or someone is ‘coming into’ (literally or figuratively) that scene or situation (as opposed to something happening within the scene or situation itself). If you think about it a bit abstractly, you can see how this even connects to the more fundamental meaning of に marking a ‘target’ or ‘destination’, in contrast with で which marks a ‘place of action’. (Aside: the author also mentions that ところへ can be used relatively interchangeaby with ところに).

You didn’t mention ところを specifically, but just since it’s another interesting point of contrast and the author of the article covers it, note how the nuance/usage is slightly different here – in this case, what follows in the second half of the sentence is something that acts upon or directly effects the scene or situation itself, another example being:

(19)こっそりたばこを吸っているところを、父に見つかった。

With this and (18), it’s not something happening within the scene (ところで) or something external appearing or arriving in/to the scene (ところに), but rather something affecting or ‘operating on’ the scene as a whole (including the speaker and their actions). Again, if you think abstractly, you can see how this connects to the more fundamental ‘direct object’ usage of を.

TL;DR – to understand the difference between how these (very similar yet subtly distinct) phrases, it’s probably most intuitive to think about what follows the ところ expression, and its relationship to the ‘scene’ as a whole (and consider this in light of the fundamental meanings of the particles で, に, and を).

Apologies for the wall of text, but hope that helps a bit!

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I’m gonna reaffirm what @John-Bunpro said but be more rough with it:

you’re confused about the difference between ところで and ところに because you don’t understand the usages of で vs に.

This applies to all grammar points featuring the two.

And also, those featuring へ and を as was pointed out.

All you have to do is understand that fundamentally で highlights that whatever follows it happens through the means of whatever precedes it. A で B → B occurs through A.
In contrast, に highlights that whatever follows it happens by means of what precedes it. A に B → B occurs by means of A.

“This means the same thing tho” you could say. Not exactly.
で is what I like to personally call the “method” particle, while “に” is the circumstance particle.
In other words, で highlights a necessary condition, while に highlights happenstance.

One could say that で = how, while に = when.

Going through your examples:

試合時間が残り1分を切ったところで、ゴールを決まられてまけてしまった。

“A goal was scored and we lost” would not have been able to come about were it not for “at the moment when there was one minute of the match remaining”.
ie. if there was more time remaining, that would not have been the outcome.

夏休みで家族とのんびりしているところに、会社から呼び出した電話がかかってきた

“A phone call came from my company” could have happened whether you were relaxing with your family or not. You relaxing with your family is not a prerequisite to it happening.

Similarly,

お湯がぐつぐつとふっとうしているところに、めんを入れてください

“Adding the noodles” doesn’t have “as the water is boiling” as a prerequisite. You could do it whenever.

で, prerequisite. に, happenstance.

The differences between all the base particles, で vs に, vs へ vs を, have nothing to do with space or time. They have to do with means/necessity.

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Thanks, that really helps!
I think this should be added to the bunpro app if it’s not already (couldn’t find a consise explanation of the difference)

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@Errykostala Thanks for the kind response, and very happy to be of service!

I think this should be added to the bunpro app if it’s not already (couldn’t find a consise explanation of the difference)

Actually, you brought this up with perfect timing, because I’ve been working on the new Related Content feature, and currently am going through N2 grammar points which include ~ところに・~ところへ.

I’ll be sure to add a Related Content writeup comparing ~ところに・~ところへ with たところで (which I’m noticing is actually an N1 grammar point EDIT whoops – just realizing this is a different use of たところで, so ignore that link for now) and try to summarize this difference concisely, as well as perhaps adding the Japanese site I linked above to the explanation for both points.

Once again, thank you for asking this question, and please don’t hesitate to raise any other points you feel unclear about. As you can see with this little exchange, it’s very, very helpful to us in bringing to our attention areas where we can further polish or add additional information/explanations to Bunpro.

We wish you the best in your studies, and look forward to hearing more from you!

P.S. Thanks also to @KurokawaMasumi for the supporting information and explanation!

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