No, this is extremely helpful, I don’t have any expectations of perfection, I appreciate anyone trying to earnestly explain it to me.
You also touched on what I believe to be possibly the biggest hurde tripping me up, which is the contrasting function of は. I do not understand if its contrasting what came before it, or what came after it.
Within your explanation, you back up what I had previously thought with the example of calling a woman beautiful, that makes sense, same with a 今年はよろしく, however I then see examples within the videos like this. https://youtu.be/o-hK4-qv9Yk?t=371
Now I may be misunderstanding her, but she seems to not make it clear which way the contrast goes when saying “But it also implies the comment on the new topic is different from the comment on the old topic and even if there wasn’t an old topic, it still implies that it’s different from the comment on other possible topics” and goes on to say “So 私は本を買った is essentially saying what I did was bought a book, you may have bought something else, others may have bought nothing at all, but what I did was buy a book, were stressing the fact that I bought a book as opposed to other possible topics who didn’t buy a book”
Do you sort of see what I’m saying? The core idea of this contrast I am completely confused on where said contrast is about what は is marking or about the comment about it.
Is 私は本を買った emphasizing that I bought a book, as opposed to other people who did, emphasizing ME, not the other possible people who did, or is it expressing contrast of the comment, saying that I could have done other things, but the one I did was a buy a book, is the contrast me, or is it the book buying?
You’ve misunderstood what she meant. She’s saying the same thing we’re all saying, that は emphasizes what comes after and that が emphasizes what comes before.
With the 私は本を買った example, all she’s saying is that the important piece of information is that I bought a book. Other people might’ve done otherwise, but what I did was buy a book.
Think about it this way. Someone asks you, “What did you do today?” And you reply, “I bought a book” The emphasis is on what you did, but also は is marking you as the topic of the conversation.
Now, if someone asks, “Who bought a book?” Saying 私が本を買った is putting emphasis on “I”. I am the one who bought a book. Not Sarah, not Tom, I.
Does that make sense? If not, here’s another video with many examples on the differences between these two particles. Perhaps seeing it being used, as opposed to being taught how they are used, will help. BTW, I love this channel, so I highly recommend it (especially if you also like video games, lol):
Yeah I think on this specific topic I need it explained like I’m 5 lol. It is discussed that は is contrastive, so which is it contrasting to other possibilities, the possibility of it’s topic, or the possibility of it’s comment. Considering no one has answered this tells me I am really missing something obvious lol, but I genuinely don’t get that one piece of information. I am assuming that it’s always contrasting what it’s marking as in 私はｘ It’s I that is being contrasted with other possible topics. But that gets weird when it keeps getting said that the emphasis is on the comment, not the topic.
I guess instead of writing all this, it’s easier to just ask it as this.
私は本を買った Is the contrast applying to 私 or to the 本を買った?
I just watched the GameGengo video and it literally answers this question. He goes into pretty much all of the functions of these two particles. Watch it, and let us know if it helped or if you’re still confused.
“Xは” is often translated as “as for X”, so “私は本を買った” could be translated as “as for me, I bought a book”. This translation makes it clear that the emphasis is on buying the book, like, “Others may have done something different, but as for me, I bought a book”. This is also mentioned in the playlist I linked above.
To me, this sort of gets into the problem for me, in this the が seems to be now the one being used for contrast. “THIS GAME is mine” as opposed to other games that aren’t? Isn’t this expressing the contrast that is supposed to be done with は?
I have watched that entire playlist already just to be clear. More so than not understanding the grammar, I more don’t understand why my questions are seemingly bizarre. It seems whenever I ask about contrast, people bring up emphasis, but if I bring up emphasis, contrast gets brought up. I feel as though my question is rather simple though…I just want to know if the contrast of the は particle is contrasting what comes before it or after it…
OK, I see. This is why I mentioned earlier that it’s better if you first memorize when to use が, because from there you’ll understand when が is being substituted by は for contrast. Right now, you have no clue when the contrast is happening, and that’s probably the root of your confusion. The GameGengo video goes through the typical usages of these two particles.
Sorry if I sound patronizing, but that’s not my intention. Hopefully you don’t read my comments that way. And I don’t mind answering your questions . I think it might just take more exposure with these particles in order to get the feel. It’s really hard at first. We’ve all been there (heck, I’m still not 100% sure on them either, if I’m being honest lol).
After re-watching, I think that it is just は is marking contrast always of what comes before it, and that I am allowing myself to get confused by the more complicated explanations that I’m not ready for. He gives good examples and they all seem to lend themselves directly to making the XはY being that the ｘ is what’s being contrasted. It is just confusing me that the focus is all about Y when X is what’s being contrasted every time, but I suppose that’s just a difference in my perspective from others. I would think the contrasted thing is important, but it doesn’t seem to be the case, the comment is what is thought of as important in the language and to everyone else lol.
I would have to find where, but I am like 99% sure in Cure-dolly’s videos she says that は always even if implicitly is marking contrast, so I have always been viewing it as marking contrast.
I think it’s also that I have probably spent a lot more time than people are expecting with these topics, I have probably listened to literally 10k+ hours of Japanese and watched 2-3k hours of directly educational content plus whatever amount I spend actually studying/srs and stuff. But certain topics like this one I find that a lot of the information is contradictory, at least in my mind, so I must be looking at it wrong, which is why I like asking other learners as maybe they could explain a trick or just say it in a new way that will make me realize how stupid my previous confusion was lol.
Well, in that case there’s probably not much I can tell you that you haven’t already heard, but I feel like it’s unnecessarily complicated to try to think of は as a “contrast-creating” particle, even if it’s true. I think of it more as “context-creating” particle. Japanese is, as you know, very implicit, always requiring you to infer sentence parts from context, and は is used for explicitly adding context when necessary in order to allow for this inference to happen in the current and later sentences. I like Cure Dolly’s explanation that が, which marks the grammatical subject, is always grammatically present in every sentence, even if it’s sometimes left out because it’s obvious from context what it is, such as when the subject and the topic is the same (which is when you “replace” が with は). I don’t think you ought to try to analyze what the topic particle does in any one individual sentence, because its effects, and its purpose, affects multiple subsequent sentences. It’s like an annotation that shows up attached to every few sentences to highlight what the current focus of the conversation (or monologue) is. That’s like the underlying logical model, and whether it affects contrast or emphasis or whatever in any one sentence is just a side effect of that.
Note: I am not a linguist and this is just my understanding based on things I’ve picked up here and there. This is not proofread nor well structured, be warned!
Part One: some basic meta information
To get to the root cause of confusion that a lot of learners have with は・が I want to first take a step back and talk about some features of the Japanese language and grammar in general.
First, in grammar there is something called a topic and something called a comment. You can consider the topic to also be the theme of a sentence. In English the topic is the grammatical subject in most cases. Take the example,
The man ate the apple.
Here the man is the grammatical subject and also the topic. However, when we use the passive in English the subject changes to what would be the direct object in an active sentence. E.g.,
The apple was eaten (by the man).
Here the man doesn’t even need to be mentioned and the apple is the main focus, i.e. the topic. The apple is also the grammatical subject. Note: the subject is not the “doer” of the verb. Grammatically, the “doer” is called the agent and the thing acted upon is the patient. (I won’t go into it here but this is also a useful analysis for understanding particles in Japanese passive sentences.)
There is also another method to denote the topic in English, other than using the passive/active voice to change the subject of a sentence. That is placing the part that would normally be at the end of a sentence at the front (I won’t use jargon for this as I don’t think it helps understanding). E.g.,
The man ate the apple because it was delicious.
Because it was delicious, the man ate the apple.
The man ate that apple.
That apple, the man ate.
You can see that this is kind of like “Yoda talk” (and incidentally you can probably see why Yoda is sometimes used as an example of Japanese sentence structure now).
And also certain prepositions can be used in English to denote a topic. E.g.,
As for the apple, the man ate it.
Regarding the apple, the man ate it.
Here you can see why these kind of forced translations are used to teach English speakers Japanese.
As you can see, word order is extremely important for establishing the topic in English and that this very often coincides with the grammatical subject of the sentence (not the agent).
Second, Japanese is a so-called topic prominent language. This is to say that the topic is the grammatical focal point of Japanese sentences and discourse. This will be important later.
Side note on this:
This model is focused on the subject for two reasons: 1. Cure Dolly is teaching English speakers Japanese and, as you can see above, the subject is extremely prominent in English grammar and English speakers tend to “lose” the subject in Japanese sentences as beginners. Japanese discourse is not focused on the subject and the idea that “every sentence has a が” is a pedagogical technique to help learners identify the subject, not a fact that is generally recognised in Japan or in the analysis of Japanese grammar. 2. Cure Dolly was in part inspired by Jay Rubin’s analysis of Japanese. Jay Rubin has a lot more credibility that Cure Dolly in my opinion however his analysis is from the perspective of someone translating Japanese into English so he is focused on bringing out the “Englishness” of Japanese grammar. This includes things like constantly focusing on the grammatical subject when Japanese itself tends not to. Japanese is topic prominent and it is important to remember that.
Third, Japanese omits as much as possible. I think most learners know this but it is important to keep in mind for what I am going to say below.
Part Two: the core uses of は・が
は marks the topic. It also replaces を and が if it is used to mark what would otherwise be the object or subject. (This is the point where the confusion starts for learners, I believe). It also can be used to ask a question, although I’d personally analyse this as an extension of topic marking. The other usage that trips beginners up is being inserted between the te-form and an auxiliary word. Examples of all below.
男はりんごを食べた
りんごは男が食べた
男は？
男はりんごを食べてはいなかった
が marks the subject. It is that simple…except when used with adjectives (especially of intention/desire) and then it gets messy as it can be replaced with を. There are many arguments about what is going on here and the nuances but that is something for another time. Examples below.
りんごが美味しかった
(男は)りんごが食べたかった
(男は)りんごを食べたかった
Part Three: so what is exactly the topic in Japanese and when do I use は?
As you can see above, は and が are not really related except for the fact that in some sentences the topic is identical to the subject and the subject marker (が) is replaced by は - this is arguably not because は marks the subject but because when the subject and the topic happen to be the same (which happens reasonably often) Japanese will revert to its tendency to omit as much obvious information as possible. The same applies for を by the way but this causes less headaches for English speakers as the object is never the topic in English so there is far less scope for confusion.
But if は marks a topic then when should a topic be broached? This is basically the core question behind when to use は, including in its “contrastive” use. The idea of topic is not just a grammatical thing but also part of the discourse itself, which is to say it is pragmatic. This is what I was talking about when I kept mentioning context higher up this thread. Given the core principle that Japanese will omit things whenever possible, if the topic is clear from context then it will not be mentioned. The topic can change without it being verbally mentioned or introduced. It will always be something that both the speaker and listener presumably know of or about (this is why it is not used with question words as the thing in question is unknown to either one of them or both). This includes things that would be considered general knowledge as well as things that are privy to only the speaker and listener and everything in between. So, for example, without context if you said:
馬は人参が好きだよ
It is actually not clear if you are saying:
Horses (generally referring to the well known animal) like carrots.
The horse (which we both know which specific horse is being spoken about) likes carrots.
That/the horse (contrastive with the other animals or whatever that we were just speaking about, of which I am now not making any comment on but simply limiting my comments to the horse) like carrots.
Without context it will be taken to be the broadest viable topic mostly, which would be horses in general.
Broadly speaking, Japanese sentences are focused on making comments about a given topic. If the topic is not clear or attention needs to be brought to it for some reason then it will be explicitly stated. This is where は comes in. In real contexts は is essentially always used to make the topic clear when it is vague or make a contrast within the larger topic (normally within a larger contextual topic) - this includes explicitly raising a new topic. This is why it is so hard to explain what is going on and why it is easier to pick up through experience. Analysing contextless sentences is tantamount to guesswork in most cases. Having said this, topics can also be raised without using は (e.g., 先週ね、博物館に行ったんだけど、…). In fact in conversation this is quite common as it is less abrupt and guides the discourse a bit more smoothly.
This can obviously get a lot deeper but what I am trying to show is how は can be thought of totally independently of usage of が. To recap in one line, it marks the topic which is a conscious and deliberate choice normally to make a generalised comment, make a comparison, or simply emphasise what the topic is that is being spoken about.
Part Four: so what about が?
Use が to mark the subject of a sentence! Okay…maybe it is a bit more tricky than that but basically the question of when to use が comes down whether the subject needs to be explicitly mentioned. Again, if the subject is contextually clear then it will be omitted (including when it is already mentioned as the topic marked by は!). The reason it is used for answering questions is because: 1. は can’t be used; and, 2. the answer to a question would be the subject but not the topic. This is hard to get your head around perhaps but can be shown by forced examples in English.
Who ate the apple? - 誰がりんごを食べた？
The man ate the apple. - 男がりんごを食べた
You can see the correspondence of the unknown subject and the answer. This is extremely unnatural though and perhaps a more natural answer would simply be 男 (actually probably more than that but no が or は involved or verb). Equally, the same question could be phrased as:
りんごは誰が食べたの？
Here the apple is the topic and we can imagine the situation in which someone first wants to bring up the topic, since they were not previously talking about the apple, and then wants to know who ate it.
intermission
I have spent enough time writing this for today and don’t intend to expand on it over the weekend but maybe I will come back to it next week. The things left I wanted to mention but didn’t were “double subject sentences”, omission of both particles, times when either can be used and it is not a large difference, and then plenty of examples. For the moment I hope this was helpful, at least. Most important though is to go and see it in use. You don’t need to explicitly know any of this stuff to be able to understand and use it.
You are welcome to read through the rest of this thread!
I am sure this took a good amount of time to write up, thank you a ton for doing so.
I was immediately interested in your example of " * 男はりんごを食べてはいなかった" As I found it super odd and I can’t really pinpoint why, your point of it is to show the ては, which is definitely true it is rather odd, as I think of て as either an “and” sort of conjoining two statements or what I will be attaching いる for, but or some other direct auxiliary, but the は before it makes it a bit odd. But I am more interested at the end the "いなかった” Is this sentence saying that “As for the man he didn’t exist eating the apple”? As in the man didn’t eat the apple? I wasn’t sure if this was supposed to be いけなかった or if I have more to learn here as I found this sentence really interesting/confusing.
I think one of the most critical things you’re highlighting is the fact that は and が aren’t two sides of the same coin and are fundamentally different, and just so happen to sometime be marking the same “thing” within a sentence.
You comment on it slightly, but do you think it’s a bad way to look at it, as there is always a は and a が as cure dolly teaches, and then when they are the same, which you choose to use, if either, then will give away it’s nuance? I am guessing you will say whatever helps me get it is best, but I figured I’d ask anyway.
You providing the different examples of the sentences about 馬 was probably the most helpful of all, all of it was helpful, but I think that part helps me the most. It really gets to the core of the idea that は is simply marking a topic and that if we have one, why keep saying it? Unless were changing it, or setting it, which in turn sort of shows where it can be contrastive, when you’re saying something about a new topic, you could very well be contrasting it with the past one (or implied base-line one) if I am understanding all this correctly.
“Analysing contextless sentences is tantamount to guesswork in most cases.” It is surely in part my own fault for asking questions this way, not just in this instance but thinking back on the past, but it’s also probably what further contributes to my confusion, because so many people, even natives will confidently answer even without context as if it’s a singular answer, when in reality from what you explained it could have a multitude of answers if the context before it happens to differ from the assumed context the answerer is thinking of.
Within your example of “(e.g., 先週ね、博物館に行ったんだけど、…)” I take this is along the lines of “So yeah last week I ugh went to the museum and . . .” Where the けど I guess could be the “but” but it’s most likely not its just the Japanese way of saying something in a hedging manner, and the 先週ね is you showing the topic was introduced differently than strictly using は, I think って can also be used similarly?
I’m not sure if this makes sense to you, but I believe a lot of my confusion stemmed from this idea of “contrast” and how the more I think about it, it can become as broad as you choose to make it, everything is as it’s core contrasting something else…as they are different things. I think I was too attached to that idea of it, and really a more healthy way of looking at it, is just as you said, a topic marker, and why would you choose to mark a topic? Well if needs marking for some reason, which could be any of the reasons you outlined.
食べてはいけない Is saying that someone can’t eat, as for eating, its いけない, which in this case is likely comparing/contrasting to other actions, eating is いけない.
But in cases of just saying 私は本を買った it’s more just like flagging the topic down “Hey over here! Me! Well for me, I bought a book” If someone else said what they did before you, then you are changing the topic from them to you. I guess its a little weird in my mind that も then would also technically change the topic from them to you? But say the same comment about each of you? So both は and も change the topic, but も would be keeping the same comment though obviously?
My overall takeaway from a lot of your help is that when I see は or が it will probably not be overly complicated to find out why. As if it could be reasonably left out, a Japanese speaker would nearly always opt to leave it out, and if it’s there It’s because they deem that it’s necessary for the listener/s to take note of the topic, or subject. It’s definitely more tricky for speaking ourselves, but that is only natural.
Personally, and again I’m not a linguist, I see this ね more as a way to grab the listener’s attention. As in “Hey! Last week I went to the museum…”.
Also, that けど at the end is a way Japanese people start a conversation. It’s not a “but” in this case. IOW, けど doesn’t always mean “but”. Japanese is a HIGHLY context language, and this is something you’ll have to keep in mind since you’ll eventually run into things you thought you knew well being used completely differently. As you keep learning Japanese you’ll notice that things usually don’t have a single function, like how は and が don’t either. Their function and meaning will depend on context.
I know it’s off topic, but if you want to learn more about this usage of けど, this is a great video (and I also highly recommend this channel):
This is an example of what I was talking about earlier. I could be wrong, but the way I think about this ては is more as an “if” rather than a topic marker. Literally what this sentence is saying is: “If (insert subject here) eats it (insert pronoun here) can’t go”. More naturally in English (assuming the subject is “I”): “I must not eat it.”
Again, I could be wrong, but this is the ては I think of in this case:
“が is the state that is a specific detail to which realistically anything/one else could also have.”
But yet if I was with a group visiting japan and said “私がアメリカ人です” Wouldn’t that come off as me saying “I am the American” and ruling out my friends as being one? That was my previous understanding but I don’t really have a good grasp of it clearly haha.
. I think it might just take more exposure with these particles in order to get the feel. It’s really hard at first. We’ve all been there (heck, I’m still not 100% sure on them either, if I’m being honest lol).
