も vs でも In Positive/Negative sentences

Japanese
#1

I’ve come quite a long way without really thinking too hard about it as sentences are usually able to be understood just from context. However I realized when I try to form my own sentences I’m not really sure when either is correct. 誰も vs 誰でも or いつも vs いつでも

In this grammar - The reason for using 何も+negative, but 何でも+positive - Japanese Language Stack Exchange

The top answer argues that the logic to them is that for 誰も or いつも the "“who” or “when” has already been defined explicitly or should be understood by the other person when used in a positive statement, and with a negative statement it doesn’t need to be defined, but with 誰でも or いつでも the grouping is not there, and it’s open to “anyone” or “anytime”

I sort of get this, but I can’t say I completely do. So if you want to say “No one can climb that mountain” which is it 誰も or 誰でも? The user didn’t really explain when the statement is negative what the difference is, as they said 誰も " In negative statements using も , you don’t have to worry about qualifying the scope of the statement" But then also claimed that " With でも The grouping can be left unstated:"

Sorry if this is all over the place, frankly I am not entirely sure the correct way to ask my question succinctly. Please if you have time correct anything I am misunderstanding. Basically at this point my understanding is that,

誰も / いつも - can be for a positive or negative statement, for positive statements it is specifying the group it’s apart of through context or an earlier statement like “友だちはだれもDSを持っている” (Which chatGPT claims is saying None of my friends have a DS, which I know is a terrible source for info but I think just speaks to the general confusion of information online it’s pulling from on how these work)

誰でも / いつでも - is for a positive statement and is open ended. It is more of a true “Anyone” or “Anytime” as it is not defined or limited.

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#2

The reason why you’re not getting a good translation of that sentence from Chat GPT is because it is grammatically incorrect. It should be this instead:

「友達はみんなDSを持っている。」 = “All of my friends have a DS.”

At least that would be the closest possible way to write it without changing much of the original meaning of the sentence.

As far as your main question goes, I’m only going to share the way I translate these words since I’m not super versed in grammatical technicalities. So take what I’m about to say with a grain of salt.

For いつも and 誰も, I just think = Always (+)/Never (-) and Anyone (+)/No one (-). The +/- symbols used to distinguish between the positive and negative variants.

With でも, 誰でも becomes = Whoever and いつでも = Whenever. Notice these don’t have a negative version like in the previous ones.

I know it’s not the best explanation, but perhaps if you limit the translations in this way it would be helpful to you too. It should hopefully make it easier to pick which one to use based on what you’re trying to say. I’m sure someone with the technical knowledge will chime in.

HTH!

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#3

Thanks for taking the time to help me out. I think your explanations of いつ and 誰 within this make sense and are similar to how I had been viewing them. But the others still confuse me quite a bit.
It seems this topic is rather difficult to find a good source for.

What about when it comes to どれも vs どれでも, how do you feel about these two?

Because in that same thread I linked there’s a very high voted post that says

There’s no reason in principle why 何も shouldn’t be possible in positive contexts. It would make sense, just like certain other combinations of question words plus も. For example, どれも is fine either way:

​11a. ​ どれも おいしかった。
​11b. ​ どれも おいしくなかった。

So is いつも:

​12a. ​ いつも 面白い。
​12b. ​ いつも 面白くない。

So is 誰も:

​13a. ​ 誰もが 知っている。
​13b. ​ 誰も 知らない。

Notice here the arbitrary and quite strong preference for が in 13a. Notice too the arbitrary difference between 知っている and 知らない, using 〜ている only in the positive. Every word has its own story to tell, and its own way of being used."

Usually I have found that explanations of things being arbitrary and “just memorize it” have been flawed and not truly learning, so I just find this topic to be particularly confusing as I can’t find many resources that say anything other than its arbitrary.

It pains me to have to make a list or memorize but it seems like it could help in this instance.

でも - should be for positive statements that are ungrouped
も - can be for either positive or negative, but certain ones like なにも and だれも have an arbitrary usage of only for negatives, that いつも, どれも and どこも do not have, and can be used for either.

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#4

Just to update, it seems How Japanese Question Words Work Outside of Wh-questions Has pretty good explanations that are relevant to this post for anyone who is interested.

#5

I use “Any (of 2 or more items)” and “Whichever (of 2 or more items”.

Actually , the simplest way to think about these would be:

  1. For question words followed by 「も」 add “Any” for positive and “No” for negative. For example:

何も = Anything/Nothing.
誰も = Anyone/No one.
どこも = Anywhere/Nowhere.
いつも = Anytime (Always)/No time (Never).

  1. For question words followed by 「でも」add “Ever”. For example:

何でも = Whatever.
誰でも = Whoever.
どこでも = Wherever.
いつでも = Whenever.

  1. Since the website you linked had them, why not? For question words followed by 「か」add “Some”. For example:

何か = Something.
誰か = Someone.
どこか = Somewhere.
いつか = Some time (Someday).

Now all you need to think about is when these are used in English and you should be good. Mind you this doesn’t always work, but it should still be helpful.

Take care!

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#6

BTW, I forgot to comment on this bit, which is not completely correct. First because the particle も usually replaces other particles, like は and が, except for the particles に and で (i .e. にも and でも are grammatically correct). And second because the use of the verb 知る in ている form (used when stating that something in known) is not arbitrary.

The ている form in Japanese is not always a 1:1 representation of the “ing” form in English. It’s more of a continuous state of being. In this case, when you know something, you’re in a constant state of having that knowledge. That’s why 知る is expressed as 知っている in a positive sentence. On the other hand, for the negative, the ている form is not needed, so you can simply say 知らない.

There are other verbs like this in Japanese. For example, the famous 「お前はもう死んでいる」phrase from ‘Fist of the North Star’. It’s not “You’re already dying”. The correct translation is: “You’re already dead”. 死んでいる = The state of being dead.

This never gets old :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:.

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