で vs に

Japanese
#1

I know this is pretty basic, and this grammar point mostly makes sense: で is used to denote the method by which an action is done, whereas に is used to denote the ending location of an action, for example in a sentence such as 「電車で家に帰る。」but I’m confused by some of the examples.

EX: ホテルで寝る。vs 車に乗る。

These both seem like similar phrases to me, and have similar translations, but use different particles. I’ve thought of に as requiring a direction or an implication of movement, such as 「ここに本を置く。」 directing the location of where to place something that wasn’t there before. However, phrases like 「彼はあそこにいます。」 have no inherent movement or direction and simply state a location that someone is existing, while 「そこで寝る。」 is also just stating the location of someone doing something.

Any insight?

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#2

One thing that may help is expand your notion of “method” to “facilitation” for で.

Its not that ホテルで寝る necessarily means that you sleep at the hotel but rather the hotel facilitates your sleeping.

The same expansion can happen for に as well but more that it doest really mean direction per se as that is へ, its more that it locates. That is why it is also used for absolute time expression as well.

彼はあそこにいます becomes “He is existing over there.” where the over serves a similar function.

I understand the confusion for そこで寝る/そこに寝る, but it’s more that either are ok, with perhaps a subtle connotation difference.

The former is that “Over there facilitates your sleep,” like a comfier part of a bed or something, where as latter is just a statement of fact, and since it’s in the infinitive form they both have the flavor or habitual action rather than a specific action.

As far as 車に乗る, boarding is a verb that requires a located object. The train does not facilitate the boarding, rather it is the object being boarded.

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#3

Thanks. I see the nuance there. It will probably just take a while of reading sentences to remember all of the variations.

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#4

So, this is another somewhat confusing example. To me it seems like either particle could work and be correct.

image

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#5

The one thing someone told me awhile ago is that に is moreso used for verbs that are being/existing, whereas で is for verbs that display an action of some sort. An example would be

アメリカに住んでいます - I’m living in america
vs
アメリカで働いています - I’m working in America

In your example above, 習う is an action verb so the sentence uses で instead of に. As always, someone can jump in to see if I explained anything wrong but that’s how someone once explained it to me for this nuance.

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#6

This is probably an over simplification, but I think one of the easiest ways to distinguish に and で for verbs is requirement. Does the verb ‘need’ that location? Use に.

Example に行く, に泊まる, に住む, にいる (all of these things ‘need’ a location, otherwise they wouldn’t make sense. You can’t go unless you’re going somewhere, you can’t stay unless you’re staying somewhere, you can’t live unless you’re living somewhere and you cannot ‘be’ unless you are ‘being’ somewhere.)

However with で, the location is not a limiting factor. You may be doing something at a specific location, but the location is not limiting you. With ここで習う, maybe サラ will say 'this place sucks, let’s learn in the library instead.

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#7

Yeah, I see. That helps. This is probably one of those grammar points that gets way easier to remember after reading a lot of context sentences.

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#8

the biggest take away I got from this thread is that I’ve been saying で住んでいる for months and I haven’t been corrected :laughing:

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#9

I feel your pain! :sweat_smile: If native speakers know what you are trying to say, they usually won’t correct you. This is not necessarily a bad thing, they are just being polite afterall. But it certainly doesn’t help to get rid of bad habits haha.

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#10

I found another sentence which I was hoping to get some additional clarification on:

image

Is the reason why we use あの店に instead of あの店で because the overall focus of the sentence is about the location that we went and not what we did there?

In other words, if we were to rewrite the sentence, would あの店でラーメンを食べに行った。 be correct?

#11

For some reason, nobody answered this for 6 months.
I think google translate has this right, and the comma here is key.

あの店に、食べに行った。
I went to that restaurant to eat.
(It’s like two sentences: あの店に行った。食べに行った。)

あの店で食べに行った。
I went to eat at that restaurant.
(where [eat at that restaurant] is the action to go do.)

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#12

I’m fairly sure this implies you were at a shop already and then went somewhere else to eat.

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#13

I disagree. I think the verb pair 食べる and 行く together makes it a motion verb of GOING to eat. Therefore, since 行く is usually paired with に and へ, it takes the latter verb to pair with the correct particle. It answers the questions of “What” and “Where,” specifically “Where” since it can answer the question of:

“どこに食べましたか？”

"さぁ。。。あの店で食べに行った。”

It has this meaning of GOING somewhere. I think the direction aspect takes precedent in this case.

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#14

This interpretation is difficult because

店に食べに行く and
食べに店に行く

are both valid, showing that it’s not a compound verb, which is not unexpected given the dictionary definition of に being able to express the purpose of a motion and nothing about doing anything else with the verb. In contrast,

店で食べに行く

is valid, but

食べに店で行く

is not, showing that @FredKore’s interpretation that 店で binds to 食べ makes sense.

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#15

There’s several ways that で is used. Maybe you’re thinking when it’s used like a conjunction.

https://www.wasabi-jpn.com/japanese-grammar/particle-de-expressing-supplementary-information/

7 functions of the particle で
1) Location of Action
2) Material
3) Means
4) Reason (Causation)
5) Range (Period of Time)
6) Amount
7) State

It’s sometimes seen as a conjunction, like here…
https://jlptsensei.com/learn-japanese-grammar/て-で-te-de-conjunctive-particle-meaning/
But even in the example #7 given,
昨日の地震で 全国の100人くらい亡くなった。
…you can view it as “4) Reason (Causation)”

So, to translate “I was at that shop and then went to eat”, it would more likely be…
あの店にいて、食べに行った。

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#16

Yes, I do agree with this as a direct translation, but in the previous example, I still can see で used in the “location of action” function.

Here is a longer version of the same sentence with more context. I’m not sure if this is correct grammar or not, but it feels natural to me, as I feel there is a difference between the location （で）of the action and the target （に）of the action. I have no access to natural Japanese IRL so this is all just coming from my textbook assumptions.

昨日、池袋と新宿で観光した。
Yesterday, I went sightseeing in Ikebukuro and Shinjuku.

池袋で、ラーメン屋に食べ行った。
新宿で、居酒屋に飲みに行った。
In Ikebukuro, I went to eat at a ramen shop.
In Shinjuku, I went to drink at an izakaya.

IIRC 食べに行く is basically a contraction for 食べ（のために） 行く。

If that is true, then we can simplify it to just this:

“I went to the store”:
店に行った (correct)
店で行った (not the intended usage)

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#17

The main difference between

あの店で食べに行った
and
池袋で食べに行った

Is that if you treat the shop as a location from where the searching begins, it’s not actually participating in the action of 食べに行く at all. Whereas since the people would be in 池袋 the whole time for the action of 食べに行く, it checks out logically.

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#18

Thanks as always man, this was the missing piece :pray: :slight_smile:

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