それでも vs ところが

Japanese
#1

These two points usually get a little confusing for me. I was tempted to include それにしても as well however I believe I have this a little clearer in my head as giving off
“I’ll grant you that A is true, but even with that said B is also still the case as well” which you can correct me on if I am wrong.

But with the two I mentioned in the title, the difference is broadly outlined as “unexpected” vs “contradictory” result (ところが being unexpected, それでも being contradictory), which at first sounds great, but the further I dug into examples I realized these two ideas can be seemingly the same.

For example in English if I wanted to say “It’s raining super hard outside, but even still I think I am gonna go fishing” Now is this sentence contradictory or unexpected? I would say it could be either, but it leans more towards unexpected, as its not necessarily a contradiction to fish in the rain.

However Bunpro gives a sentence that is fairly similar in -

  • 今日きょうは雨あめが降ふるよ、それでも釣つりに行いくの？

It’s going to rain today, even with that, are you still going fishing?

And they opt for それでも, its slightly different as in this the speaker is talking about another’s actions not their own, but I still fail to see how it can be distinguished whether ところが or それでも is meant to be used here.

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#2

ところが is about an unexpected outcome, not a contradictory decision.

Look through some example sentences with this in mind and see if your doubts vanish. If not, please share some other examples; I like thinking through this kind of thing

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#3

Hey! thanks for the reply. I guess the way you described it to me does sound like a clearer way of picturing it, I suppose it just becomes confusing how to decide whether something is being phrased as a decision or an outcome.

Take this sentence

先生せんせいがインフルエンザにかかった。それでも、学校がっこうを休やすんでいない。

The teacher got the flu. Nevertheless he still came to school.

Couldn’t this be seen as either a contradictory decision from the teacher OR an unexpected outcome from the view of the speaker?

So I guess what I’m wondering is that all there is to it? If the person said それでも they are highlighting the teachers decision as going against the A portion, or if they use ところが they are highlighting the unexpected nature of the outcome compared to the A portion.

Or is it that in that sentence it MUST be それでも for some reason I am not understanding?

I am also not sure if I am taking your point correctly or if I am misinterpreting it, I took “ところが is about an unexpected outcome, not a contradictory decision.” This portion to mean that
ところが = unexpected outcome
それでも = contradictory decision
But you didn’t explicitly state that so I don’t want to misrepresent your point.

But if it is what you are saying, I went through looking at them like that and it worked for a wide majority of cases until I came to

寒さむすぎてスキーウェアを着きた。それでも、暖あたたかくならなかった。

It was so cold that I wore my skiwear. But I could still not get warm.

Which is not describing a decision to do or not do something, but simply a state of being the speaker has no control over in the B portion. Wouldn’t this be better suited as an unexpected outcome as in ところが?

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#4

I think それでも is more flexible than ところが, which can only be used for outcomes.

それでも tends to be about decisions, but it can be for outcomes as well. I’m going to think about your examples before definitively saying whether you could replace the expressions in each case

#5

If I expand your sentence, it becomes “It’s going to rain and I expect you to stay home, even with that, are you still deciding to go fishing ?”

“The teacher got the flu. We were all expected him to stay home, but he still decided to come to school.” seems to work the same way.

“It was so cold that I wore my skiwear. But I could still not get warm.” here それでも is used to express the persistence of the situation. ところが would work here too, but それでも can also be used with a “i did all i can for the situation to stand, but it didn’t”. There is no relation to the “unexpected decision” here, it’s just another use.

Edit : if it is clearer, in the case that you described where a protagonist is cold and can’t manage to get hotter, there is nothing like an unexpected twist, nor significant contrast. You can see ところが as a way to emphasize on the surprise, when それでも can be seen as more neutral.

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#6

Yeah, so ところが just conveys that you are surprised about something.

You can replace it in

先生せんせいがインフルエンザにかかった。それでも 、学校がっこうを休やすんでいない。

This is simply saying he’s not taking time off school despite the cold.

as

先生せんせいがインフルエンザにかかった。ところが 、学校がっこうを休やすんでいない。

This is conveying your surprise. It’s not only showing contrast (as “despite” does), but it’s emphasizing the implication that you didn’t expect him to come to school in this scenario.

Again, you could replace the expressions in this sentence

寒さむすぎてスキーウェアを着きた。それでも 、暖あたたかくならなかった。

This is saying, “despite wearing skiwear, it didn’t get warm”

寒さむすぎてスキーウェアを着きた。ところが 、暖あたたかくならなかった。

This is not only contrasting, but making it clear that you thought the skiwear should have made you warm, and yet it didn’t.

In general, you could probably use それでも where ところが shows up. There’s just a difference in feel similar to the difference in feel between “he didn’t take time off work despite being sick” and “he got sick, but surprisingly didn’t take time off work.”

I still have never seen an example where ところが isn’t about an outcome, but the main difference in nuance is that it expresses surprise, whereas それでも is more akin to “despite,” which inherently contains an aspect of surprise, but focuses more on the contrast than on it being contrary to your expectations

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#7

Great way to put it!

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