Weekly Grammar Deep Dive Week 1 - より~の方が ; からいうとand べからず

Ugh. One of these. :sweat_smile: (I have an ongoing list of “confusing grammar” for myself, and this is one.)
にしたら・から言うと・から見ると
– whenever I see the English, “from the point of view (of someone else)”, I think “see” and think of から見ると.
– にしたら is only with people or organizations
– から言うと is only with inanimate things
– から見ると is with both people and things
…so, people “do”, things “say”, and everything “sees”? So confusing.
Anyone have any tips?

I just saw this in the Information box of にしたら:
[(A) にする also means “to view something as (A)”, therefore (A) にしたら literally means “if we view something as (A)”]
Do we need another grammar point for (A) にする?

3 Likes

Are we absolutely sure (ほう)が and より can be changed without the meaning changing in all the cases?

I feel like at least nuance wise, might change a little bit.

I think it should be fine for fair use if there’s discussion about them. But, I’m not a lawyers, so this is not legal advice.

3 Likes

I see, that makes sense!

Ah okay! The reason I was confused is that in the DoJG the following was stated :

"The idea of comparison can be expressed by the ‘X wa Y yori’ pattern, too. However, when this pattern is used, X must have already been established as a topic. Thus in a context like [1], the ‘X wa Y yori’ pattern cannot be used.

[1] A : トムとジョンとどちらが (つよ)いですか。
B : トムのほうが/*トムは(ジョンより) (つよ)いです。"

So, the sentence トムは(ジョンより)強いです。 gets flagged as being either ungrammatical or unacceptable, and I don’t really know why, as A already introduced the topic.

All the more reason to do a deep dive!

I can’t really say with absolute certainty, though all the sources I have read do say that they can be used interchangeably. I would have to actually open up some native grammar resources (I really should do that one of these days) to be absolutely sure. But I suspect it’s like how you can change the sentence order in Japanese as long as you put the particles in the right order. Like how both of these mean ‘Tarou saw Noriko’ :

太郎(たろう)紀子(のりこ)()ました
紀子(のりこ)太郎(たろう)()ました

Though admittedly, I either haven’t been paying too much attention to this Grammar Point when encountering it in the wild, or I simply mostly encounter it with the より part dropped, like :

A:仕事(しごと)は、(いそが)しいのと(ひま)なのとどちらがいいですか。
B:(ひま)なほうがいいです。

Though the Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar does mention :

“X no hou is a noun phrase; therefore it can also be a direct object, an indirect object, etc. However, when it is used for something other than the subject, the “Y yori X no hou (o, ni, etc.)” order is preferable.”

The use of the word preferable here makes me think that there is potentially some sort of difference in context conferred, but nothing I’ve read up to now has stated this outright. I’ll look into this some more tomorrow (though if someone else does have the answer, please feel free to share!)

3 Likes

When you should really be sleeping, but rather open up some Japanese Grammar Textbooks :sweat_smile:


からいうと [N3]

speaking from the point of view of [noun] . The noun in question can only be an inanimate thing (though people’s ranks and the like are allowed). It represents a judgement, evaluation or view from a certain standpoint.

First of all, I wanted to look this up in a Grammar Dictionary, but I couldn’t find it in neither the DoJG, Kenkyusha’s dictionary of Japanese Colloquial Expressions or 中上級を教える人のための日本語文法ハンドブック-スリーエーネットワーク. The only three Grammar books that I own, so I guess I’ll have to rely on online sources for this one :stuck_out_tongue:

While it cannot be connected to a noun that describes a person, it can be connected to a viewpoint itself. Example :

Ungrammatical : 自分(じぶん)から()うと、これは(あぶ)ないです。(Speaking for myself, this is dangerous)
Grammatical : 自分(じぶん)経験(けいけん)から()うと、これは(あぶ)ないです。(In my experience, this is dangerous)

The meaning is exactly the same as these Grammar Points :

  • 名詞+から言えば
  • 名詞+から言ったら
  • 名詞+から言って

It can be used completely interchangeably with the above three Grammar Points, so for example we should be able to re-write the following sentence to use から言うと without any change in nuance :

(かれ)性格(せいかく)から()えば、教師(きょうし)()いているとは到底(とうてい)(おも)えない。 (Speaking in terms of his personality, I don’t think he’s suited as a teacher.)
(かれ)性格(せいかく)から()うと、教師(きょうし)()いているとは到底(とうてい)(おも)えない。((Speaking in terms of his personality, I don’t think he’s suited as a teacher.))

It is very similar with the Grammar Points ~から見ると/から見れば/から見て/から見ても, though these can be connectied to a noun describing a person. So while (1) would be ungrammatical, (2) would be correct :

(1)(かれ)からいうと、それは(むずか)しいです。
(2)(かれ)から()ると、それは(むずか)しいです。(From his point of view it’s impossible.)

This means that any occurrence where から言うと is used can be replaced by ~から見ると/から見れば/から見て/から見ても, though the opposite does not necessarily hold true. (It can though, should the noun not be describing a person).

It is also very similar with the Grammar Point ~からすると (though it’s variants do have a change in nuance, so ~からして, ~からしたら and ~からすれば ) can’t just be used interchangeably. The one big thing that differs with ~からするとis that what follows doesn’t necessarily have to be the speaker’s thoughts or opinions, though they still can match. I still find it fascinating how many different ways there are to say something with the only thing differing being their usage.

4 Likes

Ah. Interesting. I stand corrected. But I think I get it.
You can’t use は because, really, in the question, 「どちらが」is the topic/subject and so it doesn’t make sense to use は. I imagine this would be like saying in English, “Which one is it?”, and then answering, “Yes” (…which many people do as a joke these days but English uses a lot more sarcasm than Japanese).

3 Likes

I see! That does make a lot of sense!Thanks :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

3 Likes

Still on the からいうと Grammar Point, I’ve found a couple of videos on the matter, the first one I can highly recommend, the second one is quite short but gives some decent example sentences. Because the second one is so short, and some people might not yet have reached a level where they are comfortable with purely Japanese content, I quickly wrote down the transcript and provided some quick and dirty translations. I might clean it up a bit and double check I didn’t make any mistakes later on (and if I feel like it I might also transcribe the first video, but that would be quite a large undertaking, so no promises!)

Japanese Transcript - Also check here if you want furigana

(みな)さん、こんにちは。今日(きょう)はN2の文法(ぶんぽう)を「~からいうと・~からいって・~からいえば」について説明(せつめい)をしていきたいと(おも)います。 「~からいうと・~からいって・~からいえば」は(まえ)名詞(めいし)()ます。 意味(いみ)は「お(かんが)えると」・「~から判断(はんだん)すると」・「その(てん)についていうと」という意味(いみ)ですね。例文(れいぶん)()ていきましょう。 中国(ちゅうごく)人口(じんこう)からいうと世界一(せかいいち)です。しかし、日本(にっぽん)(くら)べて人口(じんこう)密度(みつど)はずっと(ひく)いです。 人口(じんこう)(てん)からいうと、人口(じんこう)から判断(はんだん)するとという意味(いみ)ですね。(つぎ)例文(れいぶん)です。 でざいんからいえば、これが()()ったが、値段(ねだん)がとても(たか)い。 でざいんから判断(はんだん)するとや、でざいんの(てん)からいうとという意味(いみ)ですね。(つぎ)例文(れいぶん)です。 彼女(かのじょ)能力(のうりょく)からいって、優勝(ゆうしょう)するのではないかと期待(きたい)されている。 彼女(かのじょ)能力(のうりょく)から判断(はんだん)するとという意味(いみ)ですね。最後(さいご)例文(れいぶん)です。 (かれ)日本語力(にほんごりょく)から()えば訂正(ていせい)するところはあるが、内容(ないよう)はよい。 (かれ)日本語力(にほんごりょく)から判断(はんだん)するとという意味(いみ)ですね。 今日(きょう)は「からいうと・からいって・からいえば」の説明(せつめい)をしていきました。 (みな)さんしっかり復習(ふくしゅう)しておいてください。

English Translation

Hello, everyone! Today I’d like to explain the N2 Grammar Points 「~ からいうと・~ からいって・~ からいえば」. With 「からいうと・からいって・からいえば」, the noun comes before the Grammar Point. It has a meaning like「Thinking from the perspective of」,「Judging from the perspective of」, 「Regarding that point」. Let’s look at some example sentences :

China is the most populous country in the world in terms of population. However, it’s population density is much lower than that of Japan. In terms of population, it means “judging from the population”. Next example sentence.

In terms of design, I like this, but the price is very high. Judging from the design, it means from the point of view of the design. Next example.

Judging from her ability, she is expected to win the championship. Judging from her ability, she is expected to win. The final example sentence.

Speaking of his Japanese ability, there are some corrections to be made, but the content is good. It means “judging from his Japanese abilities”.

Today we explained 「からいうと・からいって・からいえば」. Everyone, please review it carefully.

Sentence-by-sentence translation

皆さん、こんにちは。今日はN2の文法を「~ からいうと・~ からいって・~ からいえば」について説明をしていきたいと思います。

Hello, everyone! Today I’d like to explain the N2 Grammar Points 「~ からいうと・~ からいって・~ からいえば」.

「からいうと・からいって・からいえば」は前に名詞が来ます。

With 「からいうと・からいって・からいえば」, the noun comes before the Grammar Point.

意味は「お考えると」・「から判断すると」・「その点についていうと」という意味ですね。例文を見ていきましょう。

It has a meaning like「Thinking from the perspective of」,「Judging from the perspective of」, 「Regarding that point」. Let’s look at some example sentences.

中国は人口からいうと世界一です。しかし、日本と比べて人口密度はずっと低いです。

China is the most populous country in the world in terms of population. However, it’s population density is much lower than that of Japan.

人口の点からいうと、人口から判断するとという意味ですね。次の例文です。

In terms of population, it means “judging from the population”. Next example sentence.

デザインからいえば、これが気に入ったが、値段がとても高い。

In terms of design, I like this, but the price is very high

デザインから判断するとや、デザインの点からいうとという意味ですね。次の例文です。

Judging from the design, it means from the point of view of the design. Next example.

彼女の能力からいって、優勝するのではないかと期待されている。

Judging from her ability, she is expected to win the championship.

彼女の能力から判断するとという意味ですね。最後の例文です。

Judging from her ability, she is expected to win. The final example sentence.

彼の日本語力から言えば訂正するところはあるが、内容はよい。

Speaking of his Japanese ability, there are some corrections to be made, but the content is good.

彼の日本語力から判断するとという意味ですね。

It means “judging from his Japanese abilities”.

今日は「からいうと・からいって・からいえば」の説明をしていきました。

Today we explained 「からいうと・からいって・からいえば」.

皆さんしっかり復習しておいてください。

Everyone, please review it carefully.

7 Likes

Another small thing to take into consideration here is that a lot of people will correct themselves postscript with things like this (especially if they are talking quickly). So the 立場 that the teacher was continuously referring to in his video may come very late… or never.

自分じぶんからうと、これはあぶないです…あっ、 経験けいけんね。

We do this a lot in English too. Fill in grammar mistakes at the end of our sentences. Usually when speaking, not writing.

4 Likes

Awesome thread!! Deep Dive commencing.

I can’t recommend 日本語文型辞典 enough. It’s my go-to to look up good examples, personally I add some of the examples in this book as Self-Study sentences.

Transcript of からいうと on this book:

Takes the forms Nからいうと/から言えば/からいったら and means “judging from a particular point of view”. Has the same meaning as からみると. Unlike からみると, however Nからいうと and its variations cannot be attached directly to a noun that refers to a person.

Ungrammatical:
彼から言うと、それは間違っているそうだ。 (From him, it’s incorrect.)

Grammatical:
彼の考え方から言うと、それは間違っているそうだ。(From his point of view, it’s incorrect.)
彼から見ると、それはまちがっているそうだ。 (As he sees it, it’s incorrect.)

I guess the easiest way to see it is as a difference similar to that of いる/ある. Both express something is/isn’t, but it’s not the same to have an object be to have a person exist.

8 Likes

Looking forward that book. It’s on my to-buy list for the next AmazJP order, which will probably be around January.

3 Likes

I think that makes sense. Because like in the example below, in (2) the adjective starts becoming too far from what’s describing. It’s still understandable, just a bit clunky.
(1) 車よりトラックの方が高いです。
(2) トラックの方が車より高いです。
Maybe it’d work better if you said it with pauses:
(3) トラックの方が、車より、高いです。

3 Likes

In your example it is the subject though so it’s fine. But when it’s e.g. a direct object, there shouldn’t be an excessive amount of distance between the を and the verb.

4 Likes

I clicked the heart on this comment because of this book :slight_smile:

But I have the Japanese version, are there any major changes/improvements in the English edition?

3 Likes

I don’t have the Japanese version, I’ve always had the English one. So honestly I can’t tell. Why not post some pictures form a couple of entries for comparison? And yes! I have no idea why this book isn’t more popular.

The explanations may not be super thorough, but honestly you get so much just from reading the examples and inferring from context.

2 Likes

This one is very advanced for me. But I’m still gonna learn it >:)

5 Likes

Super advanced… for now.

5 Likes

Oh boy, my first time taking a look at N1 grammar. Big fun :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes: I seem to have mostly gathered a bunch of example sentences at this point though instead of taking a deeper look into the grammar point… Oh well, still a few days remaining to dive deeper into its exact workings.

べからず [Part one]


A formal phrase, could be considered a grammar leftover from classical Japanese. It has the meaning of must not, do not, should not. An auxilary verb that indicates a strong prohibition.

How to use

Verb-dictionary form + べからず / べからざる

!Exception : する can be すべからず

見る → 見るべからず
する → すべからず
する → するべからず
する → すべからずる

べからず is a negative form of べし (should, ought to). It expresses a strong prohibition and is used only in written language. The prenominal form of べからず is べからざる , which is the written version of べきでない.

(1)それは総理(そうり)大臣(だいじん)(べからざる・べきでない)発言(はつげん)だった。 (It was a statement that no prime minister should ever make)
(2)児童(じどう)虐待(ぎゃくたい)などは(ゆる)す (べからざる・べきではない)行為(こうい)だ。(Child abuse is an unacceptable act)

There are five expressions that are synonymous with べからず, and they can be ordered by degree of prohibitiveness. The order is as follows, from most prohibitive to least :

  • べからず

  • きんず(る)

  • 禁止

  • てはいけません (てはいけない・てはならない)

  • ないでください

  • ないようにしてください

It seems that all of the above can be used interchangeably in a sentence, and these will determine how prohibitive something is exactly. If someone knows of any exceptions to this, please let me know, because I haven’t found any mentions on this.

While not mentioned among its synonyms under related grammar on BunPro, or elsewhere, I also want to take a closer look at one more related grammar point for this one of the coming days, namely :

  • 可きではない (or 可きでない)
  1. Set expressions using べからず / べからざる

So, as mentioned on the main grammar page for べからず, it seems that べからざる is mostly used in a few set expression, e.g. :

許すべからざる罪 → an unforgiveable sin
欠くべからざる物 → absolutely necessary things (= things that cannot be lacking)

Example sentences :

  • ビル(ない)でタバコを()うべからず。(No smoking inside the building!)
  • (かれ)はわがチームには()くべからざる選手(せんしゅ)である。(He is an indespensible player for our team)
  • (はたら)かざるもの()うべからず。(Those that don’t work, don’t eat).
  • ここまでくるはよいが、(さき)(すす)むべからず。(You may come up to here, but no further)
  • 関係者(かんけいしゃ)以外(いがい)()()るべからず。(Authorized personnel only)
  • 首相(しゅしょう)自由(じゆう)発言(はつげん)するべからざる(ひと)です。(The Prime Minister is a man who should not be allowed to speak freely)
  • そこはだれでも(はい)るべからざるところです。(That’s a place that no one should enter)
  • (おや)でも子供(こども)(はげ)しくしかるべからある(ひと)です。(He’s a parent who shouldn’t be too hard on his children)
  • 学生(がくせい)先生(せんせい)にひどい言葉(ことば)使(つか)って皮肉(ひにく)するのはありうべからざる行動(こうどう)です。(Students are not supposed to be sarcastic and use horrible words with their teachers)
  • 基礎(きそ)のことを(わす)れるべからざる。(Don’t forget the fundamentals)
  • (しば)(はい)るべからず。(Keep off the lawn)
  • 原子力(げんしりょく)はえねるぎー(げん)として()くべからざるものとなっている。(Atomic Energy has become indispensable as a source of energy)
  • ()むべからず。(You shouldn’t read it)
  • ()べるべからず。(Don’t eat [it])
  • 盗作(とうさく)をすべからず。(You shouldn’t plagiarize)
  • あるべからざる状態(じょうたい)。(A situation that shouldn’t exist)
  • 必要(ひつよう)()くべからあるもの。(An indispensable thing)
  • 否定(ひてい)すべからざる事実(じじつ)。(An undeniable fact)
  • 電車(でんしゃ)(なか)携帯(けいたい)電話(でんわ)使(つか)うべからず。(You ought not use your cell phone in the train)
  • 授業中(じゅぎょうちゅう)(となり)(もの)私語(しご)をするべからず。(You shouldn’t talk in class with your neighbours)
  • 無用(むよう)(もの)(はい)るべからず。 (No trespassing)
  • 虚言(きょげん)()くべからず。(Don’t tell a lie)

A fun one with a pun I came across on this article :

image

From the article :

“告 烏(カラス)二告グ ココデ餌ヲ食ゥベカラズ
公園奉行所烏捕縛目付役

Notice To all Crows You must not eat here
Crow Control Overseer, Park Magistrate’s Office

(Toyama Castle Grounds sign addressed to the local crows. It scares away crows by attracting (human) visitors’ attention. * It also works as a pun on the words べからず and からす (crows).)”

I’ll continue on with my deep dive tomorrow probably, as I feel like I haven’t gotten to the bottom of it yet. Turning in for the night though :stuck_out_tongue:

4 Likes

Nice! Good write up! I like the list of most prohibitive to least. I had always wondered about that. :+1:

4 Likes

This is a really nice thread, I’ve only skimmed it so will go back later.

As I’m reading, it seems logical that BunPro could shoot videos for their grammar points, even if only 1-2min long (especially since writing their own notes). These really do help and I think it is popular. 日本語の森 and the dolly videos are get a lot of traffic. I’d vote for English N5, hybrid N4 and native for N3-N1. Just throwing it out there, @Daru since you are here :slightly_smiling_face:

2 Likes

Next weeks thread is live : Weekly Grammar Deep Dive Week 2 - いらっしゃる; にとって and 〜ようとおもう・〜おうとおもう

2 Likes