Weekly Grammar Deep Dive Week 1 - より~の方が ; からいうとand べからず

Hello everyone! Welcome to the inaugural “Weekly Grammar Deep Dive Thread”!

The concept behind these threads will be that we as a community have discussions and research three grammar points together each week. The first week we are starting of with a selection of Grammar Points that I have made myself, but starting next week the choice will be yours! At the bottom of this post you will find a poll with 10 grammar options (marked with their respective levels). Top three selections at the end of the week will be the choice for next week. The grammar point discussions won’t be locked after a week though, so feel free to still add something at a later date. A list of all discussed grammar points can be found in the home thread.

Of course, the exact way this thread works can change depending on community input and the like, so feel free to fire away with any suggestions for improvement!

This week, the grammar points are :

Next weeks grammar?

Also, if at all possible, due to the different levels of Japanese students we have reading through these threads, please add furigana to any example sentences to make it easier for them. You can use a handy tool like NihongoDera to automate the process.

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より~の方が

When comparing two entities, one does something more than the other.

First of some good videos if you need some extra practice / Example sentences :

First of all I do have to admit that I still will occasionally do the lift hand high up ほうが other hand lower より because that was how I used to link and remember it. Now then, upon reading through the information on this Grammar Point again, there stood two things out to me that I didn’t pay enough attention to the last time I read these.

  1. On order and shortened sentences

The first thing I really like about this Grammar Point, but also why I still need to do the hand trick mentioned above is that while you seemingly mostly encounter X の方が Y より, the order can be changed without the meaning changing, e.g. :

この(くつ)のほうがあの(くつ)よりが()きです。
あの(くつ)よりこの(くつ)のほうが()きです。

But when it comes to more “lazy” options, where you drop either the “X の方が”or “Y より”parts, I’m still quite unsure on how you can respond. Do you need to respond with the same exact adjective? Can you mix it up? For example, is this allowed? :

A:(わたし)とあなたとどちらが文法(ぶんぽう)()けていますか。
B1:(わたし)のほうが上手(じょうず)です。
Or B2:(わたし)はあなたよりも文法(ぶんぽう)得意(とくい)です。

Or do you need to respond using the same adjectives, like this :

C : ジムとぼぶとどちらが (かしこ)いですか。

D : ボブのほうが (かしこ)いです。

And for the “X はYより”pattern, The Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar mentions that this pattern can be used too, however that X must have already been established as a topic beforehand. Does this mean that the A → B2 sentence would be wrong, because X hasn’t already been established in the response of B?

  1. When used on something else than the subject

When using the より~の方が Grammar Point on something else than the subject, the “Y より Xのほう” is preferable.

(おれ)はご(はん)よりぱんのほうをよく()べます。
(ぼく)はこーらより(みず)のほうをよく()みます。


Also, a bit unrelated, does anyone know whether we can just copy example sentences from the Grammar books and the like here? Or would that be considered copyright infringement? Just asking because I’m quite lazy, and if I don’t have to think of my own sentences this would be a lot easier :stuck_out_tongue:

Either way, I’m only doing this Grammar Point today, have a whole week for the three after all :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

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Some good information, hopefully people can plug some of these nuances/future responses into their Notes section for future use. Almost spooky though - I was cramming and came upon より・の方が and decided to see if DoJG listed the order the same way. This literally 5 minutes ago, it’s like you read my mind :wink:

Also yes you can copy and paste any sentences you want, ctrl+C & ctrl+V away my friend!

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I think either one is okay. Adding/Dropping “Y より” is the difference between “I’m better” vs “I’m better than you”.
As for using は, you’re okay because the topic was already introduced to the conversation through the question. It doesn’t have to be the first time a speaker mentions it.
EDIT: は is not correct. see below.

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Ugh. One of these. :sweat_smile: (I have an ongoing list of “confusing grammar” for myself, and this is one.)
にしたら・から言うと・から見ると
– whenever I see the English, “from the point of view (of someone else)”, I think “see” and think of から見ると.
– にしたら is only with people or organizations
– から言うと is only with inanimate things
– から見ると is with both people and things
…so, people “do”, things “say”, and everything “sees”? So confusing.
Anyone have any tips?

I just saw this in the Information box of にしたら:
[(A) にする also means “to view something as (A)”, therefore (A) にしたら literally means “if we view something as (A)”]
Do we need another grammar point for (A) にする?

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Are we absolutely sure (ほう)が and より can be changed without the meaning changing in all the cases?

I feel like at least nuance wise, might change a little bit.

I think it should be fine for fair use if there’s discussion about them. But, I’m not a lawyers, so this is not legal advice.

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I see, that makes sense!

Ah okay! The reason I was confused is that in the DoJG the following was stated :

"The idea of comparison can be expressed by the ‘X wa Y yori’ pattern, too. However, when this pattern is used, X must have already been established as a topic. Thus in a context like [1], the ‘X wa Y yori’ pattern cannot be used.

[1] A : トムとジョンとどちらが (つよ)いですか。
B : トムのほうが/*トムは(ジョンより) (つよ)いです。"

So, the sentence トムは(ジョンより)強いです。 gets flagged as being either ungrammatical or unacceptable, and I don’t really know why, as A already introduced the topic.

All the more reason to do a deep dive!

I can’t really say with absolute certainty, though all the sources I have read do say that they can be used interchangeably. I would have to actually open up some native grammar resources (I really should do that one of these days) to be absolutely sure. But I suspect it’s like how you can change the sentence order in Japanese as long as you put the particles in the right order. Like how both of these mean ‘Tarou saw Noriko’ :

太郎(たろう)紀子(のりこ)()ました
紀子(のりこ)太郎(たろう)()ました

Though admittedly, I either haven’t been paying too much attention to this Grammar Point when encountering it in the wild, or I simply mostly encounter it with the より part dropped, like :

A:仕事(しごと)は、(いそが)しいのと(ひま)なのとどちらがいいですか。
B:(ひま)なほうがいいです。

Though the Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar does mention :

“X no hou is a noun phrase; therefore it can also be a direct object, an indirect object, etc. However, when it is used for something other than the subject, the “Y yori X no hou (o, ni, etc.)” order is preferable.”

The use of the word preferable here makes me think that there is potentially some sort of difference in context conferred, but nothing I’ve read up to now has stated this outright. I’ll look into this some more tomorrow (though if someone else does have the answer, please feel free to share!)

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When you should really be sleeping, but rather open up some Japanese Grammar Textbooks :sweat_smile:


からいうと [N3]

speaking from the point of view of [noun] . The noun in question can only be an inanimate thing (though people’s ranks and the like are allowed). It represents a judgement, evaluation or view from a certain standpoint.

First of all, I wanted to look this up in a Grammar Dictionary, but I couldn’t find it in neither the DoJG, Kenkyusha’s dictionary of Japanese Colloquial Expressions or 中上級を教える人のための日本語文法ハンドブック-スリーエーネットワーク. The only three Grammar books that I own, so I guess I’ll have to rely on online sources for this one :stuck_out_tongue:

While it cannot be connected to a noun that describes a person, it can be connected to a viewpoint itself. Example :

Ungrammatical : 自分(じぶん)から()うと、これは(あぶ)ないです。(Speaking for myself, this is dangerous)
Grammatical : 自分(じぶん)経験(けいけん)から()うと、これは(あぶ)ないです。(In my experience, this is dangerous)

The meaning is exactly the same as these Grammar Points :

  • 名詞+から言えば
  • 名詞+から言ったら
  • 名詞+から言って

It can be used completely interchangeably with the above three Grammar Points, so for example we should be able to re-write the following sentence to use から言うと without any change in nuance :

(かれ)性格(せいかく)から()えば、教師(きょうし)()いているとは到底(とうてい)(おも)えない。 (Speaking in terms of his personality, I don’t think he’s suited as a teacher.)
(かれ)性格(せいかく)から()うと、教師(きょうし)()いているとは到底(とうてい)(おも)えない。((Speaking in terms of his personality, I don’t think he’s suited as a teacher.))

It is very similar with the Grammar Points ~から見ると/から見れば/から見て/から見ても, though these can be connectied to a noun describing a person. So while (1) would be ungrammatical, (2) would be correct :

(1)(かれ)からいうと、それは(むずか)しいです。
(2)(かれ)から()ると、それは(むずか)しいです。(From his point of view it’s impossible.)

This means that any occurrence where から言うと is used can be replaced by ~から見ると/から見れば/から見て/から見ても, though the opposite does not necessarily hold true. (It can though, should the noun not be describing a person).

It is also very similar with the Grammar Point ~からすると (though it’s variants do have a change in nuance, so ~からして, ~からしたら and ~からすれば ) can’t just be used interchangeably. The one big thing that differs with ~からするとis that what follows doesn’t necessarily have to be the speaker’s thoughts or opinions, though they still can match. I still find it fascinating how many different ways there are to say something with the only thing differing being their usage.

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Ah. Interesting. I stand corrected. But I think I get it.
You can’t use は because, really, in the question, 「どちらが」is the topic/subject and so it doesn’t make sense to use は. I imagine this would be like saying in English, “Which one is it?”, and then answering, “Yes” (…which many people do as a joke these days but English uses a lot more sarcasm than Japanese).

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I see! That does make a lot of sense!Thanks :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

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Still on the からいうと Grammar Point, I’ve found a couple of videos on the matter, the first one I can highly recommend, the second one is quite short but gives some decent example sentences. Because the second one is so short, and some people might not yet have reached a level where they are comfortable with purely Japanese content, I quickly wrote down the transcript and provided some quick and dirty translations. I might clean it up a bit and double check I didn’t make any mistakes later on (and if I feel like it I might also transcribe the first video, but that would be quite a large undertaking, so no promises!)

Japanese Transcript - Also check here if you want furigana

(みな)さん、こんにちは。今日(きょう)はN2の文法(ぶんぽう)を「~からいうと・~からいって・~からいえば」について説明(せつめい)をしていきたいと(おも)います。 「~からいうと・~からいって・~からいえば」は(まえ)名詞(めいし)()ます。 意味(いみ)は「お(かんが)えると」・「~から判断(はんだん)すると」・「その(てん)についていうと」という意味(いみ)ですね。例文(れいぶん)()ていきましょう。 中国(ちゅうごく)人口(じんこう)からいうと世界一(せかいいち)です。しかし、日本(にっぽん)(くら)べて人口(じんこう)密度(みつど)はずっと(ひく)いです。 人口(じんこう)(てん)からいうと、人口(じんこう)から判断(はんだん)するとという意味(いみ)ですね。(つぎ)例文(れいぶん)です。 でざいんからいえば、これが()()ったが、値段(ねだん)がとても(たか)い。 でざいんから判断(はんだん)するとや、でざいんの(てん)からいうとという意味(いみ)ですね。(つぎ)例文(れいぶん)です。 彼女(かのじょ)能力(のうりょく)からいって、優勝(ゆうしょう)するのではないかと期待(きたい)されている。 彼女(かのじょ)能力(のうりょく)から判断(はんだん)するとという意味(いみ)ですね。最後(さいご)例文(れいぶん)です。 (かれ)日本語力(にほんごりょく)から()えば訂正(ていせい)するところはあるが、内容(ないよう)はよい。 (かれ)日本語力(にほんごりょく)から判断(はんだん)するとという意味(いみ)ですね。 今日(きょう)は「からいうと・からいって・からいえば」の説明(せつめい)をしていきました。 (みな)さんしっかり復習(ふくしゅう)しておいてください。

English Translation

Hello, everyone! Today I’d like to explain the N2 Grammar Points 「~ からいうと・~ からいって・~ からいえば」. With 「からいうと・からいって・からいえば」, the noun comes before the Grammar Point. It has a meaning like「Thinking from the perspective of」,「Judging from the perspective of」, 「Regarding that point」. Let’s look at some example sentences :

China is the most populous country in the world in terms of population. However, it’s population density is much lower than that of Japan. In terms of population, it means “judging from the population”. Next example sentence.

In terms of design, I like this, but the price is very high. Judging from the design, it means from the point of view of the design. Next example.

Judging from her ability, she is expected to win the championship. Judging from her ability, she is expected to win. The final example sentence.

Speaking of his Japanese ability, there are some corrections to be made, but the content is good. It means “judging from his Japanese abilities”.

Today we explained 「からいうと・からいって・からいえば」. Everyone, please review it carefully.

Sentence-by-sentence translation

皆さん、こんにちは。今日はN2の文法を「~ からいうと・~ からいって・~ からいえば」について説明をしていきたいと思います。

Hello, everyone! Today I’d like to explain the N2 Grammar Points 「~ からいうと・~ からいって・~ からいえば」.

「からいうと・からいって・からいえば」は前に名詞が来ます。

With 「からいうと・からいって・からいえば」, the noun comes before the Grammar Point.

意味は「お考えると」・「から判断すると」・「その点についていうと」という意味ですね。例文を見ていきましょう。

It has a meaning like「Thinking from the perspective of」,「Judging from the perspective of」, 「Regarding that point」. Let’s look at some example sentences.

中国は人口からいうと世界一です。しかし、日本と比べて人口密度はずっと低いです。

China is the most populous country in the world in terms of population. However, it’s population density is much lower than that of Japan.

人口の点からいうと、人口から判断するとという意味ですね。次の例文です。

In terms of population, it means “judging from the population”. Next example sentence.

デザインからいえば、これが気に入ったが、値段がとても高い。

In terms of design, I like this, but the price is very high

デザインから判断するとや、デザインの点からいうとという意味ですね。次の例文です。

Judging from the design, it means from the point of view of the design. Next example.

彼女の能力からいって、優勝するのではないかと期待されている。

Judging from her ability, she is expected to win the championship.

彼女の能力から判断するとという意味ですね。最後の例文です。

Judging from her ability, she is expected to win. The final example sentence.

彼の日本語力から言えば訂正するところはあるが、内容はよい。

Speaking of his Japanese ability, there are some corrections to be made, but the content is good.

彼の日本語力から判断するとという意味ですね。

It means “judging from his Japanese abilities”.

今日は「からいうと・からいって・からいえば」の説明をしていきました。

Today we explained 「からいうと・からいって・からいえば」.

皆さんしっかり復習しておいてください。

Everyone, please review it carefully.

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Another small thing to take into consideration here is that a lot of people will correct themselves postscript with things like this (especially if they are talking quickly). So the 立場 that the teacher was continuously referring to in his video may come very late… or never.

自分じぶんからうと、これはあぶないです…あっ、 経験けいけんね。

We do this a lot in English too. Fill in grammar mistakes at the end of our sentences. Usually when speaking, not writing.

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Awesome thread!! Deep Dive commencing.

I can’t recommend 日本語文型辞典 enough. It’s my go-to to look up good examples, personally I add some of the examples in this book as Self-Study sentences.

Transcript of からいうと on this book:

Takes the forms Nからいうと/から言えば/からいったら and means “judging from a particular point of view”. Has the same meaning as からみると. Unlike からみると, however Nからいうと and its variations cannot be attached directly to a noun that refers to a person.

Ungrammatical:
彼から言うと、それは間違っているそうだ。 (From him, it’s incorrect.)

Grammatical:
彼の考え方から言うと、それは間違っているそうだ。(From his point of view, it’s incorrect.)
彼から見ると、それはまちがっているそうだ。 (As he sees it, it’s incorrect.)

I guess the easiest way to see it is as a difference similar to that of いる/ある. Both express something is/isn’t, but it’s not the same to have an object be to have a person exist.

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Looking forward that book. It’s on my to-buy list for the next AmazJP order, which will probably be around January.

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I think that makes sense. Because like in the example below, in (2) the adjective starts becoming too far from what’s describing. It’s still understandable, just a bit clunky.
(1) 車よりトラックの方が高いです。
(2) トラックの方が車より高いです。
Maybe it’d work better if you said it with pauses:
(3) トラックの方が、車より、高いです。

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In your example it is the subject though so it’s fine. But when it’s e.g. a direct object, there shouldn’t be an excessive amount of distance between the を and the verb.

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I clicked the heart on this comment because of this book :slight_smile:

But I have the Japanese version, are there any major changes/improvements in the English edition?

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I don’t have the Japanese version, I’ve always had the English one. So honestly I can’t tell. Why not post some pictures form a couple of entries for comparison? And yes! I have no idea why this book isn’t more popular.

The explanations may not be super thorough, but honestly you get so much just from reading the examples and inferring from context.

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This one is very advanced for me. But I’m still gonna learn it >:)

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Super advanced… for now.

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