What usage of と is this?

Japanese
#1

席が近いのと、一年の時にクラスが同じだったことで、なんだかんだでよく喋っている

I was rather confused by this usage of と, when I ask AI it seems to believe this is connecting the two clauses pretty much the same as the と in ぺんと紙

However I was under the belief that this could only be done for simple nouns, and never states. Meaning you can’t say “I am a doctor and a student” with "学生と医者です” for example. It would require で instead.

I often find と to be the most versatile and hard to fully grasp particle, it seems to do a lot of the dirty work where there isn’t another good option left. I am curious if anyone knows the best way for me to view this usage of the particle. Do you also think its just the regular と just connecting much more complicated noun clauses?

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#2

Particles aren’t exactly my strong point, but reading と as connecting the two ideas (“seats being close together” and “being in the same class for one year”) is what makes the most sense to me. I think the の is nominalizing the previous phrase, so perhaps that’s why it can use と?

But then again, I probably would say 学生と医者です" so :sweat:

(I guess I could see it working in its “when” function as well? But then I’m not sure if the の is still nominalizing or something else, so I think I’d read it as “and” until told otherwise.)

#3

The only way I can wrap my head around this one is とbeing used to highlight a natural consequence of an action. I think we often translate と to “when” in most of these statements. However, when I was learning about this usage of と in a Japanese class, it was explained that “when” isn’t always the best translation.

Situation + と + (Natural Consequence/Effect)
When A happens, B is expected to (will) happen.

I especially think this is the case since this sentence goes out of the way to include a comma after と. It makes me think the reader wants to emphasize that it’s only natural they talk a lot since their seats are close together.

I could be completely wrong, but that would be my way to grasp the sentence, lmao.

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#4

The の looks to packaging this clause:

席が近い

And then we have another independent clause here:

一年の時にクラスが同じだった

So three total clauses:

Their seats are close.
They were in the same 1st year class.
They often talk about this and that.

The ことで seems to be signaling “causal relation” (extrapolating from ので grammar and the ability to often interchange の with こと)

I believe the こと also has the effect of nominalizing the preceding clause so you’re left with two noun-ified clauses

Which would lead me to interpret the と as linking two independent clauses into one “package” which is then used as the “cause” for why they talk a lot.

That’s how I’d break it down anyway, seems other’s are also on the same line

{They sit close to each other, and they were both in the same 1st year class} {that’s why} {they chat a lot}

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#5

I think の here is a generic noun standing for こと

席が近いことと、一年の時にクラスが同じだったことで、
due to the thing where we sit close, and the thing where we were in the same class for a year, we talk

And then と can link together these こと clauses as a simple “and”.

と cannot link together states expressed as something+だ, or something+である, which is implied in the “学生で医者です” example. But here it should be fine.

Here is a random online example of linking two clauses with と, to support the idea that it’s fine:

言うことと行うことは別である。

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#6

I do believe the true all-star enabling the construction in this sentence is the nominalization occurring with こと and の

席が近いと、一年の時にクラスが同じだったから、なんだかんだでよく喋っている

For example the above would not, I think, be valid Japanese because と can’t be used to directly link independent clauses

I view と as doing one of two things only

  • quoting
  • noun composition/linking (simple “and” or “along side”/“with”)

Sometimes you need to expand what your definition of a “quote”or a “noun” is but these two tasks are really the only things と does.

The fact that these uses are not mutually exclusive and can appear in the same sentence may be the cause of some confusion. This article has some good examples: The Particle と I – IMABI 今日
But the overall categories are still quotation and noun composition (with comparison being an extension of the “with” composition type)

Hopefully not beating a dead horse here :sweat_smile:
This final clarification hit me and wanted to throw it up in case it helped more :blush:

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#7

Would you mind giving the context just before this? Preferably the actual text, if you can. Are they talking about various different people in their class and comparing their relationships between them, by chance?

#8

They are introducing the character they are speaking with to the reader.

The text immediately before the sentence I wrote in the post is-

“唐突に現れたクラスメイト、鳶沢 みさき.”

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