Where to go after finishing intermediate+ grammar

[sandalwood]

Hello,

I’ve completed all the grammar points in Tobira and AIJAI (plus some random ones so about half of N2) and am a bit at loss where to go from here. Last time I tried adding N2 grammar in order I found that learning obscure and rarely used grammar points led to frustration and wasn’t fun. I don’t really care about JLPT and would not want to spend too much time on grammar points unless I know they will useful in reading and will encounter them frequently enough. I know at some point I will have to learn everything but for now I would like to prioritize a bit and let the rest come from seeing them. Some not so useful grammar include (for me) very stiff Japanese in a formal setting and such. I mostly read modern novels and light novels, and do some gaming in Japanese.

Does anyone have any recommendations how to know which grammar points are actually useful and how to order the remaining grammar points? I guess useful in the context of reading popular literature and games. Or perhaps I should just stop adding any grammar points and spend that time reading instead. Then if I encounter something new find it on Bunpro and add it.

[eefara]

Or perhaps I should just stop adding any grammar points and spend that time reading instead. Then if I encounter something new find it on Bunpro and add it.

That would be my recommendation; that way you know that anything you end up looking up is immediately useful and relevant to your interests.

[Asher]

They will definitely be useful as ‘grammar’ comes up far more than ‘words’ do in speech. People tend to use different types of grammar when speaking to convey things like intensity of their statements etc. Learning all of the grammar will certainly help because you will see them so often while reading. This applies double for the latter half of N3 all the way to N1, becuase most of this grammar is what authors use to give their books flavor.

Actually a lot of the N2 and N1 grammar I see almost daily in Japan in advertising. Advertising tends to try to convey as deep a message in as small a space as possible, so they very often use advanced grammar.

Edit- Your idea of adding them as you see them could work well too, the only problem with that is sometimes grammar doesn’t look like grammar, it will just look like a word. So you could waste an incredible amount of time checking if every new word you encounter has grammatical influence. I recommend a mix of lowering your new grammar (maybe one new grammar point a day), and then just read for the rest of the time. Take the one new grammar a day with a grain of salt, everybody is vastly different. As someone that reads a lot though, yes, you will see very difficult grammar in even easy books. So the sooner you knovk it all out of the way, the better.

[s1212z]

Just throwing this out there if helpful, I had a thread of N2 grammar I was finding in N3 material (maybe you studied it already):

N2.5 grammar

These points have come up in an N3 practice book (パワードリル) but are listed as N2 in BP. There are probably more since I haven’t used the book that much. I think BP is probably correct but curious if anyone seen these points in other N3 materials. Edit: Here is a total list for anyone who finds it helpful: を問わず 上に としては としても から見ると に向かって てならない という点から考えると ところだった（１） ところだった（２） てからでないと を通じて をもとに 際に はともかく 一応① 一応② からといって には た末・の末 にわたって を巡って かねない かねる に沿って

N2 only ~20% done and would like to go through with priority if possible. I picked based on the thread I listed and then started adding based on what was simple/intuitive and then what I was watching on 日本語の森 channel or other native material; maybe what is missing in the AIAIJ path I may consider next (though I don’t have the book) and just fill in the rest as I go.

[Asher]

Yep stuff is different level according to many different sources. So it is best just to study it all at some point. Also good stuff with 日本語の森 awesome youtube channel. I studied heaps there too.

[sandalwood]

@s1212z Thank you I will be sure to check out those. Feels like “N2.5” grammar will definitely be quite common.

@Asher I see what you mean. Sometimes I feel like grinding production here at Bunpro is not too useful with my mostly reading oriented goals. I found a good reply from you which I fully agree with. I feel like I’m learning translating instead. I fear I’m creating associations with english vs japanese which may not be 100% correct in the end. A lot of the time grammar that I would fail on Bunpro I would understand well enough in writing, and that’s fine for me.

you will see very difficult grammar in even easy books

I’ve read few novels on the easier side and think that overwhelmingly my comprehension is still bottlenecked by vocab. Granted maybe these books didn’t have as much forma talk. I’ve nearly finished Wanikani and would estimate my vocab to be nearing 10k words soon, but I still see so many new words in books. Guess no way around it.

[Asher]

Yep, what I said in that other thread is completely true. But only for the usefulness of the reviews. Actually learning the grammar is super important, I just didn’t feel like the review system (being mainly English) was useful for me. If you are struggling to see the worth, then I suggest doing what I did. Just download all the sentences for the grammar points and read those for review instead of playing the guessing game doing actual reviews.

How I do it is I reasd the review sentence, check mentally if I remember the nuance of that grammar point, and then check the english grammar info (only if I need to). I almost never look at the English tranlation of the sentence, as grammar can be interpreted in many ways and it is better if you develop a feeling for what that grammar means yourself, after initially learning the ‘rough’ translation.

As for being bottlenecked by vocab. I am developing some word sheets that can be converted into anki decks that will be purely in Japanese, for people that want to immerse in an English free setting, with words they should already know.

[sandalwood]

Alright. Is there an easy way to download all the sentences while keeping them somehow organized?

For now I think I’ll turn ghost reviews on minimal or completely off as I feel like those don’t really feel helpful for me. I’ll try to go fast through N2 grammar and maybe then do the review like you said. The idea of using nihongo no mori etc. for structure is a good idea.

For vocab I’m using a site called floflo.moe which parses the vocab from books for you to add them to a SRS system (and integrates with Wanikani!). I found that invaluable in becoming able to read without constantly looking stuff up.

[Asher]

Ummm, not an easy way but I have the files from when I did it myself. Just swing me your E-mail address in a private message and I’ll send it to you straight away

Go at your own pace with the new grammar. I think I was doing 3 new grammar points a day (at most) after N4. In N5 and N4 I was doing 4 or 5 new ones a day simply because they weren’t too complex and they overlapped eachother a lot in sentences, so doing more actually helped. As they became more complex I found that I could do 3 maximum, sometimes lower if I was heavily reviewing something else that day i.e kanji.

Edit- flo flo looks good. The only problem I see with that is that (at your level) you probably shouldn’t be using English at all. Language is kind of a funny thing. The only time it REALLY sticks in your head is when you enforce meanings with other native words. From my experience, translating into English forces your brain to hold information very loosely, because it only sees the value in the English ‘yay, I know a word. I can explain that word in English’. But when you are forced to explain a word in the target language your brain re-evaluates the value of that word and remembers it better.

For example, if I tell you ‘This is 上げる, it means to go up’, your brain realllllly does not know what to do with that information. You think ‘does it mean float up?, rise?, lift up? stand up? climb?’ these are all things that prevent you from developing a relationship with that word.

But for example if you have a basic understanding already in Japanese, I can say 'hey, this is 上げる, this is how japanese people understand it
（１） 高くする． (対)さげる・おろす ∥ ▼陸（部屋）へ～
（２） よくする． ▼成績を～
（３） 現す． ▼効果を～ ∥ ▼犯人を～（＝捕まえる）／総力を～（＝つくす）
（４） 口から吐く．
（５） 油の中に入れて熱する．
（６） 終える． ▼仕事を～
（７） 「与える・やる」の丁寧語．

These are much more basic examples than you would find in a full japanese dictionary, but they all help you build relationships with that word, AND it helps you build relationships with every word in those examples… This turned into a long ass reply. Sorry hahah, I hope you can start to see the value in monolingual this way.

[sandalwood]

I see where you’re coming from, and I mostly agree with you. I actually preach about this problem myself, too! However, I think with a large majority of the words they are just directly translated nouns where there is not much room for interpretation. Those are probably most of the words I add to my queue. So instead of checking out a dictionary that 蝙蝠 is “bat” I already remember that. I feel like most of what you describe is a problem with verbs, which is probably one of the reasons they feel a lot more difficult.

So the way I alleviate this problem is that I avoid adding ambiguous/complex words to my SRS queue and even if I add them I often “cheat” the system by pushing them up even if I get them wrong, and let the context take care of it when I encounter them in the book later. I also use the undo button pretty liberally since I tend to use synonyms which don’t get accepted.

Mostly it’s exactly a lot of those basic words that are difficult and ripe with different meanings. I feel like I’ve developed a quite a good intuition from listening to podcasts for a lot of those words, which helps me not dwell on one meaning too much and just let it ‘flow’.

[tetraflu0ride]

Hi, would you be willing to send me the sentences? I’ve got a lifetime membership so I’m not stealing! I totally agree with what you’re saying about the guessing game. I can’t tell if I’m really making the connection. What Japanese to Japanese dictionaries do you use?

[NickavGnaro]

I’m in a similar situation as you, with a few months head start in my current approach.

I think you might like reading my approach, which I listed out in detail here:
https://community.bunpro.jp/t/bambis-h1-2021-study-plan/29207/6

Basically, use tech for expanding my horizons, and immerse on relatively easier material that does not challenge me too much/at all, to solidify my grasp.

OK, I was about to go study (using this method) but couldn’t help myself. Now I’m gonna go actually study xD

[solaero]

As for being bottlenecked by vocab. I am developing some word sheets that can be converted into anki decks that will be purely in Japanese, for people that want to immerse in an English free setting, with words they should already know.

本当に面白そうですよ。

Tap for English

This sounds very interesting!

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