So, started asking my Japanese friends about the example sentences on Bunpro because to me a lot of them seemed a bit weird even though I couldn’t put my finger on why. My Japanese said they thought the sentences were written by foreigners because many of them felt unnatural. So I have to ask, are these sentences written by actual Japanese people and are my friends full of crap, or am I paying this monthly fee to get Tanaka Corpus quality sentences?
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I’ve had the same experience. I have marked a few using the report error tool, but most of those type of comments (meaning where there is a discrepancy between what a native would say) are ignored.
I will say that most of the time the Bunpro feedback is really excellent and helpful. I just don’t understand why some example sentences would be clearly incorrect.
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Hey! I think it is very much a combination of things. One issue is that much like in English, where if we asked different people if they thought a sentence sounded natural, depending on the sentence and depending on the person, one person might say it was fine, while another might say they thought it was weird.
The other issue is that the way we have Bunpro set up ( grammar builds on previous grammar and the vocab used in each level tries to match that JLPT level’s vocab) means that sometimes the sentences are simply there to show the structure and you most likely you wouldn’t use that particular sentence in the real world (much like the classic sentence: これはペンです is a useful example to see the pattern but unlikely to be used in common day to day situations).
Most of N5 and a few sentences in N4 were written by non native speakers and then checked by Japanese people. The rest of N4 and above were written by native Japanese speakers.
Of course that isn’t an excuse for incorrect sentences, we try to address them as quickly as we can (it can take time to find the chance to get them checked by a native speaker and updated) and we do our best to make sure they are free from errors and natural sounding. If you see any you or your Japanese friends think are weird, please do let us know and we will take a look at them!
@celophi I am sorry that we haven’t gotten back to you about odd sentences you have reported. I will check into what the holdup might be.
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I’ve been told this as well though I never kept the example sentences in question (but I will try to be more vigilant). @Jake is PM the best way to convey this?
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@s1212z Thank you for offering to help! If you PM me, @mrnoone or @Jake, we will revisit those sentences and correct any mistakes. Cheers!
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I just wanted to point out, that I agree naturalness could be improved. Even though native speakers do have a tendency as above mentioned to criticize out of context.
Regardless, my Japanese wife, whenever looking over my shoulder when I’m doing BunPro reviews, tends to say that they sounds stiff or too textbook etc.
However, she has never said the same for say, the example sentences on Wanikani, which most the time are perfectly on point and natural in the context they would most likely show up, as if they were literally taken from conversations or a Japanese person’s blog or something.
So that makes me wonder, maybe it’s worth finding out how they do over at Wanikani…that could be helpful…
Come to think of it, the most likely difference is Japanese written by experienced teachers tends to be more textbook-ish, whereas I know WK had some people with no or little background writing sentences, which from my experience has a huge effect on naturalness, as they are not contained in the same way creatively when writing that Japanese instructors are, as the latter are so used to provided a curated form (subconsciously at least).
[PS: I mean that in no way an offense to BunPro, and not trying to compare necessarily, just something I noticed. The example sentences here are still often much better than many textbooks. But I just want to do what I can to help BunPro continue in becoming a true standout resource for studying Japanese! :)]
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Also, I think a big way around a lot of this issue to is just providing more information in the info box about when and where its used. The often found on warning signs for example, is useful.
It would be nice if at some point there were lesson groupings for grammar that were like, for example:
fundamentals | colloquial/conversational-fillers | basic keigo | advanced keigo | literary
With each section having sentences geared towards those, and even taken/sourced from (with slight modifications) if possible.
Just an idea.
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Love this idea!
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@jeffusan @Heyasuki @s1212z @celophi @toadslop
Hey 
We will try to make sentences more conversational, but remember that a lot of grammar points, especially later are really formal and used in speeches and writing. Generally Japanese have a tendency to use the simplest structures in speech, that’s why those will appear stiff.
On the other hand, JLPT exam itself uses a lot of formal writing, like the article.
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I think this is fair and I trust the content on BP so didn’t want to convey an disrespect (after all, it’s coming from native material). Japanese conversation partners will throw me English grammar questions/quotes and I get a similar reaction a) it sounds stiff b) I would not express like that c) that could be more concise. In the end, we choose our expression but otherwise have no control how the outside uses it.
Haha, sounds like my experience. Sometimes I’ll quiz her and she gets mad when her answer is wrong from BP (which usually sparks the conversation in question).
The community has been critical of their example sentences as well (!) as they tend to make really obscure topics just to exercise a particular vocab word. The grammar spectrum is nothing like BP either. I would consider native literature/texts that has gone through an editor/audiences is a far safer bet than inventing sentence IMHO. I also try to remember that all sentences are completely out of context of some unknown scenario. I suppose if we got a page from a novel and had to fill in the grammar points, that would be an interesting challenge.
Personally, I’d love to eventually see a miscellaneous section that is outside the sphere of JLPT that can deal with more casual dialog along with dialect expressions/idioms/onomatopoeia that goes into more practical survivalist phrase expression. As already mentioned, expressing grammar and understanding grammar is a different skill set.
A friend just gave me this book that is super practical for casual grammar comprehension/expression but you won’t find ANY of it on BunPro (yet 
). Check out the “see inside” for the index:
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Yea, hence why continuing to categorize and flag these things for their context will help solve the problem alot 
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I’ve wondered about this, actually - once all of us have totes swole 文法 muscles ムキムキ and completely crush N1, will there be a “Bunpro: Lost Levels” or “Re:Bunpro” or “Bunpro Zero” where we wade into territory beyond the JLPT? I’ve spent lots of time with non-native English speakers explaining slang or dialects (East Coast vs Southern) or song lyrics (so many potential landmines in rap music) or why some comedians are funny; I know I could probably use a ‘Documental Season 3’ section because I am completely mystified by whatever it is I’m watching.
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Behold… N0 grammar points!!
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ウワアア~~~~~
(死んじゃった)
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Ultimately, if the sentences on BP help you build up an intuition and comfort with JP grammar, does it really matter if they sound a bit unnatural? Surely with a foundation, you can adjust to a more natural and geo-specific slang once you’ve got the hang of the basics?
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Another thing to keep in mind - BP has to teach you each grammar point in all possible configurations, e.g. noun, verb, na-adjective and i-adjective. And for some grammar points some of those options are just not really used that much, so a native speaker would definitely say that it’s unnatural and that they would have used another construction. But that’s the point!
You have to learn ALL possible applications of each grammar point, even if they aren’t used that much in practice, you still have to understand that usage to have a complete picture of the language.
Bottom line is, from my experience so far - sentences seem really good. I have only maybe encountered like 3-4 sentences that were really bad, aside from that all other hundreds upon hundreds of sentences are really well written for the task they are meant to do.
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I think I have more of a problem with the English translations in many cases in the early levels. I already have N2 im just using most of these for review practice and to become more solid while reviewing it for some friends who want Japanese learning tools.
Some of the English translations lend themselves better to different grammar structures and are done in such a way where one could easily learn the wrong meaning for that grammar point.
The one I have seen the biggest problem with is ここ There are many spots where it translates it as THIS or puts THIS in blue next to it HERE and that is not a great way to teach that particular grammar. I have sent feedback on every one of the ones I have seen with bad English translations. (Genearlly the Japanese is OK if not a little stitled as others have mentioned.)
For example there is one that says THIS HERE is BLAH BLAH Which… You dont need the THIS. It just puts learners in danger of learning the wrong pattern if they do it. Another says “THIS PLACE” is outside or blah blah.
Which lends itself to このところ more than it does ここ。 And the English would have been just as correct to write (Here is outside or Outside is here which is stitled but correct grammar in english) THere are a few others like that where its just befuddling the English choices when you are trying to teach HERE. You have to be very careful when you translate not just with the actual Japanese sentences. Early learners have a tendency to cement the grammar they are using and later on it causes problems with learning. I think most will be fine but some will definitely accidently start using ここ when they want to refer to これ because so many example english sentences say THIS instead of HERE.
there is also one case with んです where if you hit a for other correct grammar it offers の which is normally OK. But, in the context of certain questions actually would have changed the meaning from a declarative statement or emphasis to DEFINITELY a question and wouldnt have been applicable. Small Nuances that could be mislearned. (Again usually の in swap to んです のです is FINE. But in this particular example it changed the meaning in a way that wouldnt match the English translation and COULD cause people to internalize an incorrect pattern).
This worries me and it mostly only happens in N5/N4 area and its only in the English explanations. (They are just as important as correct Japanese sentences).
Sorry for the text wall but this is actually my field.
- MA - Language Acquisition from NYU (Ninth best school in the world on the subject) and a masters in Teaching Japanese as a second language grades 1-12 (Up to N2)
Ill keep marking things that are problematic as I systematically go through your system to see if I can actually recommend it to Japanese learners or not. At this point I have instructed people that it seems OK but to avoid ここ in particular until youve studies it and used it yourself for awhile.
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Yo my partner is Japanese and she has seen pretty much all of Bunpros sentences. She also has a really high English level which I think will back up my next statement.
Yes a lot of them are unnatural, however, that is because natural conversation does not include a vast array of grammar points, and this site is designed to teach you ‘how’ the grammar works in a situation where you ‘could’ use it, not where you ‘should’ use it.
The same applied to her when she was learning English. The sentence ‘It’s raining so much that it feels like I am in the pool’ to teach the ‘so much that’ grammar structure sounds a bit weird… but grammatically perfect and good for highlighting when to use it (nuance).
If you treat BP the same way you will find it much more useful. Don’t concentrate too hard on the naturalness, concentrate on how the sentences are built that carry that grammar point, and what they aim to convey. That way when you want to convey ‘that feeling’, you will be able to use it naturally, with your own words.
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