and…
both and
conjunctive
Structure
- い-Adj.[ て ] →
い→ く て + B- な-Adj.[ で ] + B
- Noun[ で ] + B
- Exception: いい → よく て + B
[The て-form is often used to link qualities/states of someone or something. This particular use of て does not imply a sequence of events/time]
[When modifying a noun, unlike in English (Order of Adjectives), there is no particular order in which adjectives should be placed, but usually い-adjectives are found closer to the noun]
Hi there,
What is B? I’ve not seen it before and it’s not in the structure legend.
Thanks 
I’m not sure but I think B just represents the second half of this sentence that the adjective in the て form connects to?
I think this grammar point is covered in Genki I (second edition) Lesson 7, page 173:
“Te-forms for Joining Sentences”.
Currently it is missing from Genki I path.
It’s another adjective. This form is used to make a list of adjectives.
Just to clarify this quickly, this example states that we love if apples have all three of these characteristics at the same time, right? Aka we love them if they are round, big and red?
And not that we love big apples, round apples and red apples each in their own way…?
Also is it specifically emphasizing that we love those kind of apples (and wouldnt love any other kinds of apples) or is this “non-exhaustive” as in we love this kind of apples, but we could also love another kind as much?
Just not sure about the “both and” translation given for the overall grammar point. Sorry if thats a stupid question and thanks in advance!
Yes, all three adjectives modify apple which makes the apple big, and round, and red. If we were talking about big apples, round apples, and red apples you would need to make list which you can do using particles like と, も, に, etc.
It is not saying anything about other kinds of apples.
but we could also love another kind as much?
We can tell the author really likes this kind of apple since he used 大好き, theよ ending particle, and an !. While he could love another as much, the author sounds really passionate about big, round, and red apples.
Thanks, makes sense. I dont really have any other people to clear stuff like this up with which seem important to get nuances and grammar points right, so I am very thankful for any help.
Yes, all three adjectives modify apple which makes the apple big, and round, and red. If we were talking about big apples, round apples, and red apples you would need to make list which you can do using particles like と, も, に, etc.
Now that you say it, this comparison made the use of this grammar point quite a bit clearer, great!
I assumed something along those lines with the usage of よ but still wasnt too sure on my own.
So once again thank you for taking the time to reply in such detail 
months later revising stuff and back here again
Isnt the interpretation of the 1st and 2nd example with an adjective following another quite a subjective thing?
In my understanding the first sentence could also be seen as “This phone is fast because its new” (eg. if the context was that someone is surprised your phone is so much faster than his/hers) instead of “fast and new”
→ I also assume the “because” here is relatively “soft spoken” and more of a neutral statement and not as conclusive/set in stone (compared to the emphasis particles like から/ので put on cause/effect of two things/actions/phrases) as well?
Likewise the second one could work with “sweet and tasy”…?
Quite ambigious to me, because sometimes context will make one interpretation seem more likely than the other, but in many cases we cant tell exactly, no?
Ofc I guess if two adjectives are closely linked in meaning to another as sweet and tasty are with “sweet” being a kind of flavor, one being the reason for the other makes sense… But in cases like the one with the “new and fast” phone, I am often left wondering how to correctly understand those phrases when I encounter them in the wild.
It definitely doesnt really hurt my understanding when reading something, but I would like to get behind any “clues” of the “nuance” per case.
Anyways going in circles: Are there some common points in how to tell those apart or is it in the end up to interpretation in a given context?
You answered your own question: it depends in the context!
Remember that while it is 3 separate uses, the basic meaning stays the same. So really, its as if the 3 are happening at the same time, yet context define which of the three is happening. So even the same exact sentence can come off differently depending on the context.
When in touch with native material, you’ll see that most of the time it’ll be easy to discern what the meaning the speaker is going for is. (And you can always ask if its an active conversation). It’s the kind of thing that you need a lot of exposure and hours using the language to understand, rather than hours studying it.
But it seems to me like you’re well on your way.
Just keep context in mind. Context is king in Japanese. The language’s simplicity comes from taking so much out of the context, which is why you can only go so far with examples in a vacuum or in a study environment.
I think my best advice to give you for this particular matter is to go and use the language. I can tell by the way you’re questioning yourself about the nuances that you’ve a firm grasp on the matter, now it’s just practice that’s left.
Hope this helps, have a nice day!
