Confused about provisional form encountered in manga

Japanese
#1

Hello everyone,

First post here! I’m a regular user of Bunpro for already almost a year, and it helped me improve my level a lot, so some weeks ago I started trying to read manga and books to try to immerse myself even more. From time to time though, I encounter grammatical constructions that are probably simplified in spoken language, and confuse me a lot. Here’s one example I recently met in 葬送のフリーレン
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Here the sentence that poses me a problem is in the bubble in red (I put the previous and next scene for context, if more context is needed please tell me):

３０年前のある日、お前はヒンメルを知っておけばと口にした

In particular, I’m pretty lost about the part in bold. There’s the verb 知る (to know) + the ておく form, i.e. something like “to know in advance”, or in better English “to get to know” I guess, and finally the ば form, i.e. “If I got to know Himmel…” (given that ば expresses provisional, that should be it, but given that I’m still a bit confused about the different modes, please correct me also here if something better could be said). Now this ば is directly followed by the quotation と, it looks like something is missing here. It looks like to me that it should be よかった, because then from the ばよかった lesson it could match the regret expression: “If only I got to know Himmel (more)…”, so then the total sentence would be:
"On this day a few years ago, you said ‘If only I got to know Himmel more…’ "

Is this my correct understand that the よかった could be omitted in casual speech, or there something else going on here?

Thank you in advance for any advice or explanation!

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#2

I know this manga! Very cute and bittersweet. So knowing the context that the elf and himmel had an unrequited love

panel 1 - I thought you and himmel looked cute (together)
panel 2 - on a particular day 30 years ago you said (to me), If I could keep knowing him…
panel 3 - those words should have been conveyed directly to him

I think if one focuses on the ておく that means ‘keep in an existing state’ more than the えば it helps

the elf is lamenting the fact she’ll out live himmel I think

anyway! I’m probably wrong and someone much cleverer than me will be along shortly to show me up and give you a better answer! Just trying my best between meetings :wink:

EDIT: the other thing that my teacher always catches me out with is asking what other grammar constructs could have been used and what difference does it make, in this instance why ば and たら etc. ば is more hypothetical, a proper ‘what if’… I think the lack of いい or よかった is to make it more vague than it necessarily being dropped. Looking at my notes about conditionals it says ば is usually used with good and not negative outcomes, so perhaps that’s the nuance anyway

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#3

I think you’re pretty close, however I wouldn’t put the “more” there. To me it simply looks like “On that day 30 years ago, you said ‘I should have known Himmel’”.

As you say we can assume there should be よかった, as in 知っておけばよかった. Then we know that 知っておく means roughly, as you said, to know in advance. But the ばよかった pattern indicates some kind of regret or missed chance. You use it when you realize you should have done something differently. So that is why I get this idea that the person who said it regretted not knowing ヒンメル at that point in time when reading this sentence.

From what @jrmr50 said, I assume that the third panel indicates that the elf (I suppose) should have said that directly to ヒンメル, as in simply get to actually know him or something. An then we have the first panel in which the dwarf says he pitied them.

That would be my interpretation.

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#4

I think my knowing the manga’s story rather than any grammar skills is helping me.

Summary

The theme is that this Himmel and the Elf main character the dwarf will be talking to were in love with each other 30 years ago but never confessed and then he went and died cos humans don’t last long in comparison to elves and dwarves.

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#5

The replies up to now have been very helpful, although as an outsider on this - I’m also still confused as to the function of the と here. Is it quotational?

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#6

My guess with this one is that the meaning with 知っておけば is close to ‘if only I had known Hinmeru’ with a hint of regret that they didn’t know them. If I had to translate the whole box, it would be something like ‘On that day 30 years ago you let slip “If only I had known Hinmeru”’. The ‘let slip’ is usually how I interpret 口にした, as it’s a bit more like ‘dang I said it’ rather than just ‘said’.

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#7

Yeah it quotes what the elf has 口にした.

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#8

I wouldn’t translate it as “know” but rather “get to know” like in the top post. 知る by itself without ている is more like learn than know. When you’re interested in someone, you want to know more about them, right? But she didn’t put in the effort and now it’s too late, so she regrets how superficial their relationship was, and that she didn’t get to know him better.

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#9

Thank you for the detailed answer! I actually put “more” because basically the two characters are already acquainted, and it seems it might be more about romantic feelings, so she would’ve wanted to “know him more” (as usual, context is a nightmare haha…). Thank you, with the よかった the sentence becomes more or less clear, as the ばよかった is a standard grammar point and nothing is missing then (that was my biggest confusion).

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#10

Thanks for the answer! Yeah, I really enjoy the manga, and I’m also pleasantly surprised as it’s not too difficult too read. I was first a bit afraid when I picked it up due to all the fantasy setting but it turned out quite ok (vocabulary aside sometimes, but that’s just a matter of regular reviews).

Oooh, I actually misunderstood the bit about Frieren being romantically interested in Himmel, I guess that’s the whole nuance of the 知る verb in dictionary form when applied to a person! I suddenly realised that the scene refers to the one at the beginning, after the burial of Himmel and Frieren saying something along the lines of “Even though the life of humans is so short, I didn’t thought I would want to know more (about him)”. Now it kinda make sense, I see!

Also thanks for the recommendation about how to think in those kind of situations, I guess thinking about what else could be used and why or why not could be useful :slight_smile:

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#11

Thanks for the answer! So basically it’s indeed the よかった that could be there. Also you’re right, I put “to say”, but I learned that 口にする is more akin to “mention/let slip/etc.”!

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#12

I really enjoyed the first 4 episodes of the anime and want to start reading the manga as well once my Japanese improves.
May I ask on which level you are in your Japanese at the moment (more or less). Especially with vocabs?

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#13

Wait, so this is Sousou no Frieren? I didn’t realize. My friend told me about the anime which seems to be well received. And you’re telling me the manga is on the easier side? Hmmm I was looking for a manga to read after I finish my current LN.

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#14

I have nothing to contribute, but I just want to say how much I love Frieren. I have the manga in English and I really want to read it in Japanese when my reading level improves. The anime so far is lovely, too.

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#15

So, I’m currently at 194/217 points of grammar at N3 level in Bunpro, and otherwise for vocabulary I’m using WaniKani (quite the standard package haha), there I’m at level 27, so around ~850 kanji and ~2500 vocabulary words I’d say. To be honest, I’m kind of a perfectionist and I really hated at first the idea of reading something without understanding much, but then I realised past level 20 in WaniKani that if I don’t practice words start to fade away from my memory so I started to read stuff. That’s why I strongly recommend it, even though it might feel a bit hard at first - anyway, any first book/manga WILL be hard, there’s no avoiding it. The second usually is already a bit easier, also psychologically you’re feeling more at ease.
I’m still reading with a dictionary (I’m reading on my iPad with a split screen), but then I add new words that I don’t know yet/haven’t encountered in WaniKani to a deck of cards and also try to learn them (though not as regularly). Frieren has a rather accessible text structure, in particular grammar wise, and also it has furigana over all the kanji which makes searching for new words easier. Good luck if you try the manga!

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#16

Yes, it’s Frieren! Sorry, I put the title only in Japanese in my original post, should’ve put the transliteration. It’s indeed surprising accessible, at least grammatically wise (of course, I’m still encountering a lot of words I don’t know but I just add them to my personal flashcard deck and learn that on top of my usual WaniKani reviews). I really enjoy it so far, so yep, I’d recommend it!

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#17

:man_facepalming: you really did put the title there. My brain did not put the two and two together. That is kinda awkward.

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#18

I can really relate to that. I don’t liked the idea to look up every other word to read a single page either. But I guess it can’t be helped.

I was asking also, because I want to take on the N4 in summer because there sadly is no N5 in my region. I realized over the last days that I should be fine with WaniKani Kanji and grammar with Bunpro (currently doing the N4 deck) and I’m starting to include listening as well.
But I was not aware, that there are even a lot of Kanji related vocabulary in N5 and N4 which are not included in WaniKani. So I have to start adding a lot of vocabulary, both kana and Kanji related. I’m searching for the best way for me right now.

#19

Instead of that, use this free app called 10ten Japanese Reader. It’s like Yomichan, but for iOS:

Thank me later :wink:.

Check out the 新完全マスター book series for JLPT exam preparations. If you can do well there, you’ll have no problem passing the JLPT. They have books for each part of the exam: Grammar, Vocabulary, Kanji, Reading and Listening. The whole set is around $100 USD, so it’s a bit expensive, but you can buy individual books too:

The above is just one website you can buy them, but Amazon probably has them too. Highly recommended!!

If you want to test yourself, there are several apps you can download. However, these are the ones I’ve used:

The first one is completely free, but it does have some mistakes here and there. However, it is similar to the 新完全マスター books (kinda). The second app is not free, but it has everything you’ll need to pass the JLPT. The last one is mainly for reading (and it’s great for that!), but it also has JLPT style tests for free.

I’m sure there are a lot more resources out there but, like I said, those are the ones I’ve tried. I still think the 新完全マスター books are the best though, but that’s me.

Good luck on the test!!

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#20

Thanks for the many resources! I have installed 10ten, it’s indeed practical - but this would work mostly on webpages and others, for manga it doesn’t (I’m using the kindle app to read it).
Also it’s actually fine, I believe that clicking on a word and getting it immediately is a bit too simple, in the sense you can be tempted to constantly do that - so the extra work of searching a word in the dictionary, adding as a not the right context I’ve met it and adding the example of the sentences (I’m using Nihongo so it let’s me add a screenshot of the sentence) feels somehow more stimulating memory-wise!
But still, in some cases 10ten would be useful, so thanks again :slight_smile:

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