上で うえで - Grammar Discussion

Grammar Points
#7

This grammar point is about preparatory actions. So this does sound like a mixup unless Tobira also has the other usage in the same chapter. Note that most of the examples aren’t even with nouns.

I thought it might have been a context thing because in A Dictionary of Intermediate Japanese Grammar, there is a note that the noun in Nの上で with the preparatory action meaning is usually a noun that describes investigation, discussion, etc. Like the few noun examples in this grammar point, basically.

However, the “from the standpoint” meaning is listed separately as Nの上では and they specifically make a point that it’s not the same as Nの上で…

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#8

What is the difference between 上で and あとで?

#9

I would say あとで is used un everyday language but you will only see 上で in more formal situations. I wouldn’t say あとで would necessarily be wrong to use in a more formal situation though, so if in doubt, I would personally use あとで.

#10

Looks like the Nihongoの森 link is broken but sadly I can’t find a re-upload.

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#11

@Ambo100 Thank you for letting me know! I have uploaded a new video. Cheers!

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#12

I agree, I think this is a mixup in the Tobira path, and Chapter 11 should use 上 (from the standpoint of) instead.

Edit: sorry matt_in_mito, I replied to the wrong post ^^’ I meant [MysticChameleon]'s (上で うえで - Grammar Discussion - #4 by MysticChameleon)

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#13

thanks, I came here to make this point

I think the grammar should add a note “this is for things not yet done”, rather than simply saying the order things happen in

#14

In 家の中を見た上で、買おうと思っている。(“I am thinking that I will buy the house after I have seen the inside.”), is it clear whether or not the speaker has already seen the house?

#15

It’s clear that they haven’t seen it, because 上で is used to express that something will happen after the fact.

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#16

What I see more often in the wild is 上で in the context of “according to …,” like this example sentence from A Handbook of Japanese Grammar Patterns:

暦の上ではもう春だというのに、まだまだ寒い日が続いている。
“It is still cold, even though it is already spring according to the calendar.”

I was going to add that as a self-study sentence but I thought I should ask first: should the “according to …” meaning be the same grammar point? Should that be a different grammar point (I searched and didn’t see that Bunpro had it (yet))?

#17

暦の上では is a special expression used only when talking about how the current weather is unusual for the current season, like the example you have provided. This use of 上 in this expression is closer to this grammar point.

Hope that clears it up!

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#18

Thank you! I seriously just saw that that very grammar point was in my next lesson literally seconds ago and I was like, “D’oh!”

#19

Hope it’s okay to revive an old thread. Doing some reading on NHK news and came across this sentence.

氷見市立博物館の廣瀬直樹学芸員は「古い家屋や蔵が解体される際に歴史を知るうえで重要な資料が失われる可能性があります。」

The 知る上で is throwing me off a little bit. My brain wants to translate his quote simply and just say, “When old houses and storehouses are demolished, important historical materials may be lost.” So where is does the ue de fit in then? Would a literal translation be closer to something like, “When old houses and storehouse are demolished, upon knowing history, historical materials may be lost,” as in “since I know history, I also know that this is a logical progression?”

#20

This grammar point is about past+上で which is different from dictionary form+上で. It looks like the video linked in the resources section covers it in the second half.

I’d read 歴史を知るうえで重要な資料 as “important materials for learning about history”.

#21

Ah, my bad. Thanks so much!

#22

I can‘t find any information about this case dictionary form + 上で. Is it missing in bunpro?

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#23

The structure section explains that the use requires the で, yet the last (real) example sentence is:

以下のリンクからログインの上、内容変更をしてください。

It does not contain highlighting for the grammar part as well. Can someone explain this discrepancy?

#24

Hey @Isurandil492 !

This looked like a typo on our end so I have just fixed this! However, just like many other grammar points, you may see this grammar point used in the wild with the particle で omitted!

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#25

Sorry to bump this old thread, but I also came here to say that it seems dictionary form + 上で is missing in Bunpro. I wonder if there are any plans to fix this?

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#26

Same here, I’ve been seeing this grammar point (dictionary form + うえで) too often this week alone from podcasts and TV shows. I think it should be made staple. Probably as a different grammar point as it has a completely different meaning. From my research, it seems to be similar to のに conjunction particle implying the meaning of “in order to A, B”. The tense completely changes the meaning.