ないことには～ない - Grammar Discussion

Grammar Points
#1

unless you do something

Structure

  • Verb[ ない ] + ことには + Verb[ ない ]
  • いAdj[ くない ] + ことには + Verb[ ない ]
  • Noun・でない + ことには + Verb[ ない ]
  • なAdj・でない + ことには + Verb[ ない ]

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#2

Just thinking… Is this point somehow related to なくてはいけない? Sounds like they could be related. Like this…
～ないことにはいけない
～なくてはいけない

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#3

Am I correct in thinking that this structure could be boiled down to simply ないと?

For example, the first review sentence is「夫婦では仲良くしないことには、うまくいかない。」but to me, you could just say「夫婦では仲良くしないと、うまくいかない。」and it means the same thing. The second review sentence,「やってみないことには、出来るかどうか分からない。」similarly could be said「やってみないと、出来るかどうかわからない。」and carry the same meaning to me.

Obviously this isn’t the first or last time there’s many ways to say the same thing, but is this a correct assumption? There was nothing suggesting ないと in the related grammar section of the lesson.

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#4

According to the grammar point for なし, the word/vocab 無し (なし) is equivalent to ない事 (ないこと):

About なし

Although it is used almost exclusively as a suffix, なし is actually a noun that means ないこと ‘thing without’. …

So, that would seem to imply that this grammar point, ないことには～ない, would be equivalent to a similar (identical?) hypothetical grammar point なしには～ない. Is that correct?

Because when I checked on Jisho, I found several sentences for なしには (sentences), and they all followed the pattern of ending with a negative, i.e. なしには～ない.

Is this correct, that ないことには～ない is equivalent to なしには～ない (simply because なし is equivalent to ないこと)?

If it is correct, then maybe there should be some mention in this grammar point (ないことには～ない) that it is also commonly expressed with なし instead of ないこと. Could also link (directly, or in ‘related grammar’ or something) to the grammar point for なし, where this equivalence is mentioned.

Maybe there could also be example sentences that use なし in place of ないこと? In fact, maybe there could be some explanation as to the nuance difference (if any), and when to use which.

[I was going to post this using the [Send Feedback :beetle:] button on this grammar’s page, but I wasn’t sure enough about my suggestion, so I decided to post it to this discussion thread instead.]