ないで - Grammar Discussion

without doing, not…and…

Structure

  • Verb[ない] +

[AないでB is often used to express that B has been done without A - which is usually expected]

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Missing a full stop in the following example sentence:

食べてからジェットコースターに乗らないで。

:v:

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Thanks! Fixed :wink:

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I’m a bit confused about when to use ないで and when to use other grammar structures that have the approximate meaning of ‘don’t’. I understand the ‘without doing x’ usage.

For example, when do I use ないで vs な vs something that approximates the meaning of ‘don’t’ like てはいけない?

It’s really funky to me when ないで is used at the end of a sentence.

ないで in that usage is like て, just for negatives. Like you could gently say “don’t eat the cake” with ケーキを食べないでね.

食べるな is a command and 食べてはいけない is like saying you must not eat the cake. Both sound much more forceful than 食べないで to me.

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Can someone explain the difference between these two sentences?

何も言わないで、出て行った。
何も言わなくて、出て行った。

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Hey and welcome on community forums! :grin:

This might help:

Therefore なくて (if used with a verb) has to express reason or cause.
Since 何も言わなくて doesn’t seem to be a reason/cause for 出て行った。 I would say it is a bit unnatural and you should use 何も言わないで、出て行った。instead :+1:

I hope this helps :bowing_man:

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@mrnoone For this grammar point, I see the note “Softer than the prohibitive ‘な’”. This confused me at first since my review was for the adverbial use of ないで, not the command version. Specifically:

日本に行ったことがないから、勉強しないで行くのはやめたほうがいいと思う。[する]

Even if they are related, would you consider these two separate grammar points?

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Good idea!

For the time being, I have replaced that short note with:
" [Often used on the end of the sentence as the contraction of ないでください", which is a softer way to express prohibition than “な”]"

:+1:

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I seem to be lacking a bit of knowledge about how the full meaning of this sentence is indicated:

お父さんはまだ寝ているので、大きい声を出さないで遊んでね。
Since dad is still sleeping, play without talking loudly.

If it is saying to “play” at the end, why is it ending with “ね”?
This seems like a different usage to the ね grammar point we were taught here.
Is the んでね combination something we learn later? I couldn’t really find anything relevant when searching the grammar points page for ね. Or was this meant to be the “んです” we’ve been taught, in which case I’m guessing that’s just a contracted form or a mistake?

My only guess why this sentence ends with ね is that it’s being said from the perspective of a loving mother looking for a sort of slight, but not explicit confirmation from their children that they understand the command/suggestion?

Thanks!

Well, the grammar point taught here is ないで, not ね. So they are unrelated.

No, this sentence is correct. 遊んで is just て-form of 遊ぶ (as in てください but without the ください). And the ね at the end just softens the statement. The speaker’s not trying to yell at the kid, just tell them nicely to play more quietly.

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Yeah I understand it’s not the grammar point at hand but it’s within the context of it so thought posting here was most appropriate.

I didn’t really realize ね could be used in such a non-questioning manner, that’s good to know, thanks.

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Seems it’s resolved, but since I ended up here this morning for something else…
ね isn’t something that really is requiring an outright response, like a question. It can be often be used in the way we’d tag our sentences with words like"ok?" or “isn’t it?” or “y’know” or “huh?” It seems to just…make the conversation interactive, allowing the other person to just nod in response without requiring an answer.

大きい声を出さないで遊んでね。 Play quietly, ok?

A: いい天気ですね。 B: そうですね。
A: Nice weather isn’t it? B: It is, isn’t it?

If ね required a worded response the conversation would go on forever, ha ha.

Anyway, I’m here because I’m having trouble with sentences like

because the hint is

instead of “Work and don’t take a break.” (which is understandably awkward). If there are more sentences like this I’ll fail each one unless I memorize them all, ha ha. So, could these 〜ないで sentences have the little orange"prohibitive" (or white on the answer line) or even just the word “don’t” added to the hint? That would really help.

Edit: Oh…I guess I wasn’t getting it :woman_facepalming: …after a bit more review I’m realizing: ないで isn’t specfically prohibitive, right? It really can just mean “without” and not necessarily be a command?

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Hey :grinning:

You are correct:+1:

ないで is not necessarily prohibitive, it means “…not, and…” or “…without…”. It is basically used to connect two clauses, like て form.
Though it is used in set expressions like ないでください、ないでほしい and the like.

Hope it helps a bit,
Cheers :+1:

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