That makes sense, I just thought it would be useful to have a review that forced you to use the informal form of request before this point, as I somehow missed that it existed.
Why is エレンさんがミカサさんに美うつくしい花はなを もってきてくれた wrong here? Surely both あげる and くれる are valid depending on the relationship of the participants, or am I missing something?
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Yes you’re right, but it would depend on the relationship of the participants to the speaker, and not to each other. Nice spot!
@francisdavey Thank you for drawing this to our attention. I have updated this review question to catch てくれた rather than mark you wrong. Cheers!
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Hello there!
Someone help me, please…
How come here 友達ともだちに優やさしく してあげましょう cannot be してくれましょう? Aren’t they the same in that regard? Like, I thought that 友達 is supposed to be a part of your inner circle, no? Where am I mistaken?
Someone please explain this to me…
Only other people can -てくれる. Because it’s generally other people who -てくれる, it’s not used in forms that express volition like the volitional form or the -たい form etc.
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Oh, I see… Thanks. I think I kind of understand now 
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Hey all, I was curious about this sentence:
あそこのおばあさんを手伝ってあげましょうか。
Shall we give assistance to (help) that lady?
Could using …あげますか work here as well?
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Hey, and long time no see 
ますか cannot be used for that, it is a question about doing the verb. However, ましょうか can be rephrased to ませんか, though the first one is closer to a suggestion to do something and ませんか is closer to an invitation.
あそこのおばあさんを手伝ってあげましょうか。(suggestion)
Shall we give assistance to (help) that lady?
あそこのおばあさんを手伝ってあげますか。(just a question)
Will you give assistance to that lady? (Do you have the intention to help her?)
あそこのおばあさんを手伝ってあげませんか？(invitation to do something)
Won’t (we/you) give assistance to that lady?
Notice that with ませんか the hearer has more “leeway” to refuse the invitation, compared to ましょうか。
I hope it helps,
Cheers
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Ah that makes sense. Thank you so much for the detailed explanation!
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So, I’m a bit confused about politeness.
A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar says “S.o. gives some action as a favour to a person who is not a momber of the giver’s in-group but whose status is about equal to that of the giver.”
And “When the benefactor is in a higher position than the recipient or is of equal status and his relationship to the recipient is close, Vte yaru is used instead of Vte ageru.”
With examples for this being someone doing something for their little sister, cat, and a close friend.
Now Bunpro has as example sentences 母に花を買ってあげた。and 息子がオモチャを無くしたから、探してあげた。
I’d usually be happy to assume that maybe the books are just overly formal and correct, but my teacher also pointed out how （私の）家族に～てあげる is a bit ちょっと。。。
So, is my teacher also a bit overly formal, or is Bunpro just teaching slightly rude language? Or is there something else I’m missing about using あげる towards people in my in-group?
Also Bunpro’s explanation about “～てやる is the casual form of ～てあげる, and can be used without the need to worry about sounding patronizing.” seems to clash with DoBJG? Or maybe I’m reading it wrong? If ～てやる is used when the giver is in a higher position than the receiver, then doesn’t that mean I’m implying I’m in a higher position than the other person if I use it, making it more patronising?
Hey there! That’s an excellent question.
Generally speaking, あげる indicates that A did something for B from their own volition. A teacher once told me that one of the reasons it can sound very rude when used with people of ‘higher status’ is because you’re doing something close to demanding thanks or implying the other person can’t do it themselves. For example:
説明してあげる？
‘Should I explain it to you?’
This can sound in a formal context as I’m doing this for YOU.
In this case, it’s better to detach any direction and just state what you want to do to help. For example:
洗ってあげますか？ vs 洗います。
“Should I wash [it] for you?” vs “I’ll wash [it].”
And, coming back to this:
It’s going to be totally dependent on the family/context. Some families will find it rude to use this tone with your parents, some others won’t. So, like a lot of stuff in Japanese, it’s not a one-off thing.
Again, depends a lot on context. It HAS the risk of sounding patronizing, but most of the time, as long as it’s in a circle of people you feel are all the same ‘status level’, its probably fine. Textbooks love to be over formal to avoid awkward situations.
Hope this helps!
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So, to sum up, if I’m talking to someone of a higher position and want to be absolutely safe it’s best to drop the ～あげる／～やる completely?
How about when I’m talking to someone 外 about someone 内? Like, telling a neighbour how I helped my mother clean? Iirc that’s my teacher was talking about with “（私の）家族に～てあげる is a bit ちょっと。。。” (But it’s been a whiile xD)
母に掃除をしてあげました。
母に掃除をしてやりました。
母のために掃除をしました。母に掃除を手伝いました。(?)
Here I’m less concerned about being rude to my mother, and more concerned about being rude to my neighbour, right?
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Yeah! Like 敬語, the key is to put as much distance as you can between you and the ‘respectee’.
It’s all about who you’re addressing to! If in the conversation you’re addressing to your mom and you are on ‘casual’ terms with her, then you can use ～あげる (though ～やる feels a bit rude particularly towards your family, but a friend or similar is fine.)
So think about it as if you were saying: “Mr. Judge, I love Mom very much” vs “Jwudge-San, I love my Mother very much”. See (however ridiculous) how the tone changes? That’s basically what you would be doing.
Rude to your neighbor would be to drop the Polite tone, rude to your mom would be to refer to her in casual terms. In that logic, 母に掃除をしてやりました。would exemplify this, but, 母に掃除をしてあげました。is just stating that you cleaned for her sake.
Hope this helps!
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Now that the explanation states that てあげる can be patronizing, I think it should advice what to use to avoid that problem. As it is now it leaves the reader nothing to solve this problem with, “Related Grammar” doesn’t seem to point to anything either.
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Regarding てあげる… Seeing it’s rather rude in many contexts, what is the correct way to offer to help a stranger?
I.e “let me take a picture for you”, “let me help you with your luggage”, etc.
The volitional form can be used to make suggestions, and who does what for whom can be left to context. For example:
写真を撮りましょうか
お荷物を持ちましょうか
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So I also came here to ask, "if あげる might be considered rude by the elderly or someone of higher status, what is the most commonly-used alternative?". A different thread suggested that 差し上げる might be appropriate, but the nuance didn’t seem to match to me.
Is prompting with 〜ましょうか the best approach then?
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Hey there @he77kat !
差し上げる would be the best word to use to someone of a higher status! This will depend on the person on the receiving end and the situation, but adding ましょうか to てあげる could sound as patronizing as just using てあげる even though it sounds polite. てあげましょうか could be taken as rude because it kind of implies that you think that the person (of higher status) lacks the ability to do something, and could sound like you are being passive aggressive about their inability. However, by using て差し上げましょうか, it makes it sound like you are putting yourself below the person you are talking to.
I hope this clears it up!
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Sorry to once again bring up this topic that already has so many helpful comments.
Perhaps I’m missing a vital hint, but I think looking at this prompt it’s not clear if the speaker considers Tom “uchi” which would imply くれる, or “soto” which would imply あげる.
Maybe the hint for くれる would be “for me”, and so “for Tom” places poor Tom as an outsider to the speaker?