点・てん - Grammar Discussion

[Pushindawood]

aspect・respect
point・way
in terms of・in that
from the point of view

Structure

• Verb + 点 (で)
• い-Adjective + 点 (で)
• な-Adjective + な + 点 (で)
• Noun + の + 点 (で)
• Phrase + という + 点 (で)

[Used to express one aspect (a certain part, feature, etc) of something. Often used when comparing, expressing similarity, agreeing or disagreeing, etc.]

[という usually follows longer clauses but does not follow: いくつか、あらゆる、この、その、すべての、このほかの、etc.]

[という also does not follow if the “点” is directly modified like “細かい点” - fine aspect. という must follow direct quotations (quotations that end with ending particles like ね、わ、etc.)]

View on Bunpro

[s1212z]

Is this actually wrong? It’s in the にしたら grammar point.

[Daru]

That sentence has been updated and improved since then, if you have any other questions let us know!

[Christophegand]

Hi!

In this phrase:
オレはドアを開けっぱなしにするべきではなかったという点だけについてはあなたに賛成です。

Why don’t we put “で” after “という点”?

The grammar explanation states :
In all cases, 点 must be followed by the 格助詞 で.

So what am I missing here?

Thanks for your help.

[Daru]

@Christophegand

Why don’t we put “で” after “という点”?

Because it can be replaced!
Straight from the write up:

Sometimes, で (as ‘with’ or ‘at’) may be replaced with expressions such as について ‘in relation to (A)’, or からいうと ‘speaking from (A)’. So long as the grammar structure that accompanies 点（） is also used to highlight something specific (and can be paired with a noun), it will sound natural.

In this case, it is used to bring emphasis to the fact that out of all the things this person could possibly agree with, only with the stated fact can they concede the other party is right.

Hope this helps!

[Christophegand]

Yeah. Thank you.
I do feel stupid now because the answer was in the explanation

Maybe I was mislead by the phrase:
“In all cases, 点 must be followed by the 格助詞 で.”

Which is not totally true, because later on the explanation states that で can be replaced

[Schuylerca]

don’t think you were stupid I think that bp should revise this a little -

Having some issues understanding this as well and thought “ALWAYS” ok but then wait exceptions. And what’s worse is there is an example

No where does the write up even talk about からかがえると

The write up still says

So it’s NOT all cases but it does need to be followed by some sort of particle. Suggest BP reword/rewrite this in all cases except when it may be replaced by について、からいうと、からかんがえると、etc (see below).

The way it’s presented could use some improvement for sure. Also it’s not always clear why sometimes it’s ok to sub and sometimes it’s not

This one seems ok to me

but then there are others that seem ok but don’t seem consistent with others

so ok this is a noun and needs a の, can’t use という makes sense.

But then

not sure howあらゆる is being used here but if it’s noun/pre noun then it would expect a の modifier and ok cannot replace with という。 Which is ok, but then

now we can put という with this one even though it is a noun.

this one has me more puzzled because after a verb we can just put 点で but for some reason we can use everything except that one

I realize that I am still just learning this grammar point and certainly very confused right now but this explanation overall could be improved. I know you folks do read and listen to the users so please take this as constructive feedback, in the meantime will work on trying to better understand this grammar point.

Thanks!

last edit another one the last example

not followed by anything previously explained but now followed by だけ before について？？？

and that one can be rephrased but then this one cannot

No idea why I’m so confused but maybe it will make sense in the morning, in the meantime the explanation seems at least a bit incomplete and could use some updates.

[pasi]

This grammar point does seem to have exceptionally difficult training sentences early on.

First two sentences had grammar I wasn’t familiar with (like 何()らか) and then you have sentences with 忘()れっぽい (which I believe is a grammar point that comes later), etc.