てもらう - Grammar Discussion

[bokudake]

I’m also having difficulties interpretting the part after the comma of this sentence.
雨が降りそうだから、(その人たちに)傘を持っていってもらってね。[持って行く]
It looks like it might rain, so have them take an umbrella (for me).

I guess my problem is remembering that XにYてもらう means: to have X do Y for me, because this meaning is not intuitive for me. This sentence is even more complex because you’re asking someone to have someone else do something.

Without knowing (or forgetting) this grammar point I tend to intuitivelly wrongly interpret it as:
It looks like it might rain, so go receive/take an umbrella from them (for me).

I understand that this:
雨が降りそうだから、(その人たちに)傘を持っていってもらうね
would mean: It looks like it might rain, so I will have them take an umbrella (for me).

[Yumari-1]

If I posted in these grammar threads every time I have a question I would already have over ~100 posts likely They seem desolate unfortunately, with questions left unanswered or people coming years later and expressing the same difficulties.

Also staff seems to be tired with my bug reports as they were getting responses initially and things were getting changed if needbe, but now they’re all left alone And I don’t think I have a lot of them, only 5-6 actually over 2-3 months…

But anyway, here I also have trouble parsing 「雨が降りそうだから、傘を持って行ってもらってね。」
First of all, I don’t see a way to magically infer その人たちに or such without any further context. Google even sees this as “It looks like it’s going to rain, so please bring an umbrella with you.” This is how it looks in the lesson, at least.

Another confusion point:
「朝から頭が痛かったから病院に行って、医者 に 見てくれた。」
This is weird to me in light of Misa’s (superb IMO) explanation from (https://youtu.be/lp-2PNSANJ8?t=571). She uses a different particle, and seems the sentence would become:
「朝から頭が痛かったから病院に行って、医者 が 見てくれた。」
as in “…doctor looked at me.”/"…doctor examined me".

Misa doesn’t even use に with ~てくれる directly at all, but rather with ~てもらう.

[nekoyama]

@Yumari-1

But anyway, here I also have trouble parsing 「雨が降りそうだから、傘を持って行ってもらってね。」

The speaker (A) asks someone else (B) to もらう the action of 傘を持って行く (to bring/take an umbrella) from some unknown party that’s definitely not B, and very likely not A. Therefore there should be someone else who is not mentioned explicitly and who is supposed to take an umbrella with them. (Or multiple people, of course.)

@Yumari-1

Google even sees this as “It looks like it’s going to rain, so please bring an umbrella with you.”

It can’t be this because if we’re interpreting the sentence as a request (which this translation does), then at least a part of the request is to もらう = to have someone else do an action.

I do think the sentence is not completely unambiguous on a grammatical level. But IMHO it’s unlikely that it’s “take an umbrella with you and go, and then もらう something not mentioned” or “hold an umbrella, and then have someone else go away”, etc. And since there’s nothing else after もらってね and no other context at all, there’s no hint that it could be something other than a request.

@Yumari-1

Another confusion point:
「朝から頭が痛かったから病院に行って、医者 に 見てくれた。」
This is weird to me in light of Misa’s (superb IMO) explanation from (https://youtu.be/lp-2PNSANJ8?t=571). She uses a different particle, and seems the sentence would become:
「朝から頭が痛かったから病院に行って、医者 が 見てくれた。」

I agree. に can be used with てくれる but it would mark the recipient, not the doer of the action.

[Yumari-1]

@nekoyama

But IMHO it’s unlikely that it’s “take an umbrella with you and go, and then もらう something not mentioned” or “hold an umbrella, and then have someone else go away”, etc. And since there’s nothing else after もらってね and no other context at all, there’s no hint that it could be something other than a request.

Thanks a bunch for this explanation, it actually cleared up lots of confusion for me. The stacking of constructs to basically from

The speaker (A) asks someone else (B) to もらう the action of 傘を持って行く

can be kind of daunting, but it helps to dig into these kinds of sentences for later stages of learning, at least for me.

@nekoyama

I agree. に can be used with てくれる but it would mark the recipient, not the doer of the action.

Right?! Thanks for confirming my intuition on that one.

[shroud41]

From the “about” section at the top of the page:

てもらう is also regularly used when receiving a service from someone, as てくれる would imply that the action was a favor.

But then the two following sentences use てもらう and てくれる, and … I can’t tell the difference between the meaning of the two sentences. What am I missing?

昨日きのうは朝あさから頭あたまが痛いたかったから医者いしゃに見みてもらった。
Because my head hurt since the morning yesterday, I had a doctor look at it.

朝あさから頭あたまが痛いたかったから病院びょういんに行いって、医者いしゃが見みてくれた。
Because I had a headache since this morning, I went to the doctor and he checked it out for me.

[casual]

Well, the meaning, as in events that objectively happened, are the same: the doctor looked at/consulted the speaker about the headache.

Just the nuance of the speaker’s attitude is different.

With (A)にしてもらった the speaker is talking more about a service that’s expected to be preformed, about some sort of obligation. The doctors are expected to treat everyone equally, and you also pay for the service through taxes or insurance, this kind of idea.

With (A)がしてくれた the speaker is talking more about something done out of kindness of the heart, regardless of any obligations. The doctor was very kind to look at the issue in detail, he didn’t just stop at a perfunctory check, but actually tried to help.
It’s also just a generally kinder way to phrase it when both ways of thinking are possible.

Sometimes either construction can apply to a given situation, sometimes one of the constructions doesn’t make a lot of sense.

For example, you would not seriously say にしてもらった about your friend helping you, since you are not in a consumer-service provider relationship.

And on the other hand, if a police officer is asking (commanding) to come along to the station or whatnot, a version of してもらう is appropriate, but してくれる is not really.

[torpedotaiyaki]

I’m having a difficult time discerning why the polite form is incorrect over the te form.

[Fuga]

Hey @torpedotaiyaki !

持っていっていただけます does not work here since this is the conjugation of the intransitive verb いただける. This means that 持っていっていただけます has the nuance of ‘would be able to take’ and unlike 持っていっていただいて, it does not have the nuance of ‘Have them take…(for me)’.

Due to the difference in nuance, using 持っていっていただけます would make the Japanese sentence as unnatural as saying ‘It looks like it might rain, so they will be able to take an umbrella’ in English.

I hope this helps!