まで(も) - Grammar Discussion

Grammar Points
#1

even・to even, to the extent

Structure

  • Noun + まで(も)

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#2

I gotta ask a stupid question! Is that okay?

How do I know that it’s “even in the middle of the night”, rather than just a “until the middle of the night” in this first example sentence?

After all, N + まで can mean until, right?

Or is it simply a matter of emphasis? As in, it’s implied that we’re studying from some earlier point in time until the middle of the night, which is quite noteworthy?

So, in short: Other than context, is there some trick to distinguish the “until”-まで from the “even”-まで ?

EDIT: Guess I should have done more reading… it says here:

So I guess it sometimes just isn’t obvious.

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#3

If you want to be more clear, you can simply use までも. :+1:

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#4

I have been wondering why も、さえ are not acceptable here:

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#5

What is the difference between this and ほど for the meaning “to the extent”? Are they interchangeable?

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#6

彼は親切だが、家族と一緒とまで言うことができない。
He is really kind, but I wouldn’t go as far as calling him family.

Is someone able to explain to me how the section 家族と一緒と translates into “calling him family”? I read this as “together with family”.

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#7

I came in to ask the exact same question. :wink:

#8

Any update on this?

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#9

I am wondering the exact same thing :frowning: Any ideas so far? I thought the first と might the ~and~ one and the second と the quotation one. I`m not sure though. It seems off to me.

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#10

An admin/high-level person can chime in, but when i had this exact question awhile ago I found the answer to be in this page

There may be some slight nuances I’m missing, but that kind of steered me in the right direction. Might be able to hold ya off until someone much smarter than me answers :wink:

#11

Can anybody please give me an explanation of the difference between ほど and まで in this context? The explanations in the grammar points don’t make the difference clear to me and the link above doesn’t cover the “even/to the extent” nuance.

#12

I have a question that is well represented by this example:

お腹なかが空すいているとき、熊くまは果実かじつまで食たべる。

Bears will even go as far as to eat berries when they are hungry.

Is there any nuance to adding the “まで” to the noun here (berries) instead of the verb (eat)? Would this be equivalent:

お腹なかが空すいているとき、熊くまは果実かじつを食たべるまで。

To me, this feels more like the English equivalent of “Bears will even go so far as to [eat berries]” whereas the original feels like “Bears will go so far as to eat even [berries]”

#14

The structure box says it is used with dictionary verbs but from what I’ve seen (examples included), it’s used with 〜て form.

e.g. 大ケガしてまで手に入れた

#15

Like @jelly1, I also got confused by the 〜て form used in the examples.

I got confused by the example: “お金を払ってまでテストを受けたくない” Which uses 払う in its て-form so I searched a the www a bit and came to the conclusion: Using the dictionary form in the above example (お金を払うまでテストを受けたくない) would be translated to “I don’t want to take the test until I payed for it” which fits “Verb + まで” (N5 Lesson 8 6/13) but not までも. As this is new grammar for me, feel free to correct me if I’m wrong but I think it should be “Verb[て] まで”

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