だれか・どこか・だれも・どこも - Grammar Discussion

Grammar Points
#1

somewhere・not anywhere, someone・not anyone

Structure
どこ か + に / へ + Verb[る] → (toward) somewhere
どこ に / へ + も + Verb[ない] → not (toward) anywhere

どこ かに ある・どこ にも ない
to exist somewhere ・to not exist anywhere

だれ か + に / へ + Verb[る]→ (toward) someone
だれ に / へ + も + Verb[ない]→ not (toward) anyone

だれ かに 言う・だれ にも 言わない
to say to someone ・to not say to anyone

だれ か + と → with someone
だれ と + も → not with anyone

[When expressions like 誰か/誰も/どこか/どこも(indefinite pronouns) are used with certain particles like に・へ・と, then in the case of 誰か/どこか the particles are attached directly after, and in the case of 誰も/どこも the particles are “sandwiched” between だれ/どこ and も.]

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#2

I’m a bit confused with this grammar point. The Maggie Sensei article compares でも and にも and only the Mkikuchi Faculty Grammar Notes covers a little bit of かに.

So please correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding so far is…

WH-word (i.e. だれ) + でも = だれでも = Anyone

でも seems to used as a suffix for certain WH-words to mean ‘no matter what WH-word it is’.

かに and にも are used in the same way but their meaning is always towards something, except にも is to be used with a negative sentence.

These two words consist of a particle に or へ meaning ‘towards’ plus か in front to mean any or も after the particle to mean any in the negative sense.

:face_with_raised_eyebrow:

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#3

I am a little confused by one aspect of this example sentence.

「これ誰かにあげてくれる？」
「誰にもあげない。」
“Could you give this to someone?”
“I won’t give it to anyone.”

The question give to someone something is using both あげる “to give (away)” & くれる “to give (me)”. Why isn’t it just あげる?

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#4

Hey and long time no see! :smiley:

This くれる is くれる used when requesting something, similar (but more casual) to ください.

てくれる (or てください) attached to てあげる -てあげてくれる/てあげてください is used when we request someone (2nd person) to do something that will be beneficial for 3rd person.

(I changed sentences a bit for clearance)
フクロウさん「これネコさんに あげてくれる ？」
カラスさん「いやです。誰かほかの人に頼んでください。」
Mr. Owl (1st person) requests Mr. Crow (2nd person) to give it to Mr. Cat (3rd person). But Mr. Crow refuses, and tells Mr Owl to ask someone else to do that. “it”, the object belongs to Mr. Owl (the first person/speaker/the one requesting).

フクロウさん「これネコさんにあげる？」
カラスさん「そんなつもりないよ。」
Mr. Owl asks Mr. Crow if he intends to give it to Mr. Cat. But Mr. Crow says that he is not willing to give it to him. “it”, the object belongs to Mr. Crow (the 2nd person, the listener, the one hearing question (not request)).

I hope it shows difference in this case clearly,
Cheers!

PS
I will change this sentence and add てあげてくれる to the to-do list. :+1:

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#5

Wonderful answer, that really cleared it up for me, thank you @mrnoone!

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#6

This was super confusing for me at first and I kinda share @Ambo100’s sentiment that the linked resources don’t seem to really correspond to the description for the grammar item.

Now, if I’ve understood the item correctly (and I could be completely mistaken), it would be helpful to reword the item to be less "かに”・”にも” and more “どこ[what here][what particle]”. For me the “toward” in the structure section made me think it’s something completely different and it took me ages to realize that it’s asking for "どこか” [+particle]、”だれか”[+particle] etc.

In other words. although the structure DOES say “doko + kani/kahe” now that I look at it, it was really kinda hard to decipher and once I realized I’m kinda being asked to input two separate things, the correct word ("どこか”) + the correct particle (”に”）it kinda clicked.

I’m sure some people have no trouble parsing the description but for me it was super tricky and because I didn’t make the connection from "かに” being end of word + particle, I didn’t understand what to study from Kim Tae or the other resources.

#7

@pasi Hey! Thank you for providing your insight. I have updated the Structure section of this grammar point. What do you think? Cheers!

#8

Sorry, just realized I never got back to you on this. The new text is much better in my view (granted, I’m “tainted” by now so it’s hard to assess how it would read if it was my first time).

Thanks. :slight_smile:

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#9

Why is this here, too? I’m super confused by this.
How is this all the same grammar point?

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#10

@tetraflu0ride

Hey :blush:

I have changed the grammar point a bit, so it is less confusing. The basic idea is that particles are attached in different ways to (誰か、どこか) and (誰も、どこも). We have added particle と too because it is fairly common and the same principle applies.

What do you think about the new form?
Should be と sentences completely removed or is it alright for the time being?

PS
Avatar from K-ON?

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#11

Wow, what a quick and swift response; thank you! The way you have it now makes a lot more intuitive sense. I am not sure about what to do about the と sentences and I want everyone to learn as much as possible so if I’m the first to complain I’m sure they’re fine! I especially like the extra explanation added in [brackets].

I know bunpro is not supposed to be a teaching tool, but more of a structure for review.
I’m having a hard time understanding what exactly the function of “も” is in these cases, but it’s my responsibility to figure it out.

ps: it’s from Hyouka (also kyoani). I actually dropped the show, but I liked this character’s cute face!

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#12

I got the sentence from the examples" どこかに友達ともだちがいるのですか。" in my reviews which makes sense, but I noticed it listed using “どこかへ” as an optionally additionally correct answer instead of " どこかに". This variant does not show up in the examples and seems incorrect to me since there is no sense of towards in the sentence (どこかへ友達ともだちがいるのですか。). Is it a correct variant?

#13

Hey sorry, what is a “WH-Word”? I’m not familiar and I can’t figure it out. Does it mean like : What, Who, Where, When, Why? It isn’t defined it the structure legend or maybe I can’t find it and when I try to google it I just get…words that start with WH like Wham

#14

Wh-words are the English question words that mostly begin with “wh” such as why, who, when, where and so on. It’s not related to Japanese, the user just went with a familiar term to refer to question words.

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#15

Okay thanks! I thought that was what they meant but I was kinda worried it was a secret code for something and got a bit nervous. I guess to many people it’s obvious but I’ve never heard of it before

#16

Why is へ used being used with the verb 言う？ 誰だれかに 言いいたいけど、まだ誰だれへも言いわない。Is this an exception? I havn’t seen へ be used with any other verbs, other then when travelling or going some where ie いく。is へ also used with the verb 言う or is it only used with 言う when used with 誰も？ as in 誰へも？ are there any other verbs that don’t mean speak that take へ when used with 誰へも？Is へも the same as にも？ and if it is, is it only used like that when using 誰も and is not used with any other words, for isntance although I can say 僕にも but I can’t say 僕へも？ or is this a mistake on Bunpro’s part and 誰へも Is ungramatical and not said by anyone?