かに・にも - Grammar Discussion

somewhere・not anywhere, someone・not anyone

Structure
どこ + / + Verb[る] → (toward) somewhere
どこ / + + Verb[ない] → not (toward) anywhere

どこ かに ある・どこ にも ない
to exist somewhere ・to not exist anywhere

だれ + / + Verb[る]→ (toward) someone
だれ / + + Verb[ない]→ not (toward) anyone

だれ かに 言う・だれ にも 言わない
to say to someone ・to not say to anyone

だれ + with someone
だれ + not with anyone

View on Bunpro

I’m a bit confused with this grammar point. The Maggie Sensei article compares でも and にも and only the Mkikuchi Faculty Grammar Notes covers a little bit of かに.


So please correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding so far is…

WH-word (i.e. だれ) + でも = だれでも = Anyone

でも seems to used as a suffix for certain WH-words to mean ‘no matter what WH-word it is’.

かに and にも are used in the same way but their meaning is always towards something, except にも is to be used with a negative sentence.

These two words consist of a particle に or へ meaning ‘towards’ plus か in front to mean any or も after the particle to mean any in the negative sense.

:face_with_raised_eyebrow:

2 Likes

I am a little confused by one aspect of this example sentence.

「これ誰かにあげてくれる?」
「誰にもあげない。」
“Could you give this to someone?”
“I won’t give it to anyone.”

The question give to someone something is using both あげる “to give (away)” & くれる “to give (me)”. Why isn’t it just あげる?

1 Like

Hey and long time no see! :smiley:

This くれる is くれる used when requesting something, similar (but more casual) to ください.

てくれる (or てください) attached to てあげる -てあげてくれる/てあげてください is used when we request someone (2nd person) to do something that will be beneficial for 3rd person.

(I changed sentences a bit for clearance)
フクロウさん「これネコさんに あげてくれる ?」
カラスさん「いやです。誰かほかの人に頼んでください。」
Mr. Owl (1st person) requests Mr. Crow (2nd person) to give it to Mr. Cat (3rd person). But Mr. Crow refuses, and tells Mr Owl to ask someone else to do that. “it”, the object belongs to Mr. Owl (the first person/speaker/the one requesting).

フクロウさん「これネコさんにあげる?」
カラスさん「そんなつもりないよ。」
Mr. Owl asks Mr. Crow if he intends to give it to Mr. Cat. But Mr. Crow says that he is not willing to give it to him. “it”, the object belongs to Mr. Crow (the 2nd person, the listener, the one hearing question (not request)).

I hope it shows difference in this case clearly,
Cheers!

PS
I will change this sentence and add てあげてくれる to the to-do list. :+1:

2 Likes

Wonderful answer, that really cleared it up for me, thank you @mrnoone!

1 Like

This was super confusing for me at first and I kinda share @Ambo100’s sentiment that the linked resources don’t seem to really correspond to the description for the grammar item.

Now, if I’ve understood the item correctly (and I could be completely mistaken), it would be helpful to reword the item to be less "かに”・”にも” and more “どこ[what here][what particle]”. For me the “toward” in the structure section made me think it’s something completely different and it took me ages to realize that it’s asking for "どこか” [+particle]、”だれか”[+particle] etc.

In other words. although the structure DOES say “doko + kani/kahe” now that I look at it, it was really kinda hard to decipher and once I realized I’m kinda being asked to input two separate things, the correct word ("どこか”) + the correct particle (”に”)it kinda clicked.

I’m sure some people have no trouble parsing the description but for me it was super tricky and because I didn’t make the connection from "かに” being end of word + particle, I didn’t understand what to study from Kim Tae or the other resources.

@pasi Hey! Thank you for providing your insight. I have updated the Structure section of this grammar point. What do you think? Cheers!