ように・ような - Grammar Discussion

Grammar Points
#21

This lesson’s structure rules and examples are a bit misleading, it’s easy for a beginner to mis-chunk the clauses and end up using the wrong particle.

  • Verb + ように + Verb/Adjective
  • Verb + ような + Noun

彼の車は工場のような臭いがする。 - Adverbial Clause (which should use に)
彼の車は工場のような臭いがする - Noun (which should use な)

バケツをひっくり返したように雨が降っている。** - Adverbial Clause (which should use に)
バケツをひっくり返したように雨が降っている。 - Noun (which should use な)

I think the lesson structure needs to differentiate the following:
Adverbial Usage: X is similar to (ように) Action A.
Adjectival Usage: X is similar to (ような ) Thing A.

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#22

Ohhhhh!!!
Thank you so much, I was so confused! I couldn’t understand why sometimes before a noun に was used, and the opposite!
Perhaps your explication should be added to the grammar point! (Or maybe it’s not japanese related, but grammar-in-general deficiency that I have, anyway thank you again!)

#23

I have to say this whole grammar point is utterly confusing and should be redesigned imo.

The usage pattern above is not found in a single example on the page, where ように is always paired with の just as in previous grammar points regarding ようだ.

Whereas the usage pattern suggest it should come modifying a verb.

Also as @NathanBell_Au explained very eloquently, it is also confusing at first when exactly な or に is used here.

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#24

I’m also not a 100% on this, if the grammar point is meant to be verb + ように/な + verb/noun, why are so many of the example sentences noun + の + ように/な + verb/noun such as 彼は亀のように走る? I’d appreciate it if the grammar page made it clear why this grammar point is split into two pages as such.

#25

Why are these sentences using ように instead of ような?

バケツをひっくり返したように雨が降っている

あなたが言ったように、事故が起こった。

#26

ような is for nouns, ように for verbs. Yes it comes before a noun, but it’s taking about the action.

“The accident happened like you said”
“Is raining like a bucket was tipped”

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#27

I’m a little confused why it is ように in 君()が言()うように綺麗()ですね。

The rules listed on the page made me think that 綺麗 would make it ような.

#28

Sometimes, this structure is used purely to express the speaker’s uncertainty about whether (B) really is being done/existing in the way of (A). In these cases, ように (or ような) will be translated as ‘as if’, or ‘as though’.

can ように in this case be used with past-tense verbs as well? e.g.

彼は今、人を殺すような目をしている。
(Right now, his eyes look as if he is about to kill someone.)

彼は今、人を殺したような目をしている。
(Right now, his eyes look as if he has killed someone.) <----- Would this be correct?

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#29

It certainly can be! In the situation you described, it also slightly changes the nuance.

殺したような目 makes me think of someone with a crazed/panicked look as if they had just committed the act.

殺すような目 makes me think of someone that is more full of hate that is on the verge of something.

In general, when something can be used after the ‘standard’ form of a word, this just means any form that isn’t です/ます. That means 〜る、〜た、〜ている、〜ていた、〜ない、〜なかった、〜ていなかった etc

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#30

that makes sense! Thank you for the detailed explanation :slight_smile:

1 Like
#31

I think the structure on this lesson needs to include:

Verb + よう + に + Phrase

Currently it only lists verb/adjective/noun as being modifiable, but it’s clear in some cases that an entire phrase is being modified. E.g. consider this example:

君が言うように綺麗ですね。
It is beautiful, just like you say.

If we claim that only the verb (the copula です) is being modified, then that implies the speaker is agreeing with every existential claim you made about this place (i.e. “it exists just in the way that you say”). I.e. maybe you said that it is other things (in addition to beautiful), but the translation makes it clear that the speaker is agreeing specifically with a single assertion (i.e. “it exists as beautiful in the way that you say”).

Alternately consider this dialog, written in English for simplicity:

Alice: This thing is big, beautiful, and cheap.
Bob: It is indeed big just like you say.

Bob does not agree that it is beautiful or cheap. The “just like” modifier isn’t merely modifying the verb (the copula). If it was, he’d be agreeing with all of your assertions about the thing’s existence (which completely changes the meaning of his response).

I also believe both of these examples fit the “modifier + phrase” pattern:

あなたが言ったように、事故が起こった。
An accident happened just like you said.

Presumably they’re not saying “the accident happened in a specific manner that you described” but “an accident happened, period, as you claimed it did happen”.

十代に戻ったように楽しかった。
It was fun, just like being in my teens again.

Obviously the verb “return” by itself is not what’s being labeled as fun, but rather the entire concept/phrase “returning to teenage years”.

ようなきれい、ようにきれい