Grammar order / grouping

Grammar Points
#1

Structure
*

View on Bunpro

ハロー皆さん！

When we study something and we gather information from different source (books, websites, webapp etc…) it can’t be helped that more or less everyone who teaches uses a different order and sequence on how the things are presented.

Is quite some years now that I’m studying Japanese and still I haven’t found the general absolute order on how the things should be on a sequence and, if there is not, hows should we group all the grammar rules.

~Wanikani justifies it’s sequence explaining that it goes from Kanji that are easier to memorize first and not by simpler meaning first. and that’s reasonable.

~Tae Kim uses a “Japanese Approach” which I doubt is followed from Japanese.

~Which order Bunpro uses? and why?

It may seem not a problem but it bothers a lot during my study process cause I just feel confusion on not having a Complete Ladder to follow.

Thanks :slight_smile:

#2

There’s never to be an absolute order for grammar, ever. The only thing remotely similar would be if someone created a frequency list of every single Japanese grammar point and all of said nuances which sounds like total, total hell. TK’s approach is about teaching you the fundamentals and essential portions to begin your grammar journey. It’s going to leave out a ton of items that you would need in your daily immersion.

The beginning of N5 on BP is pretty much set in stone with how every other textbook/etc. is going to teach it because there’s just so many fundamentals you have to cover - particles, conjugations, etc. Once you finish most of N4 then it comes down to either following along the guide or just picking points that apply the most to you. I assume you’re studying by JLPT level, does it really matter that one source may talk about one thing slightly earlier or later than another? It’s something you’re just going to have to deal with sadly, there’s so much to the language and like every other language, there’s a giant difference in essential grammar vs. supplemental grammar

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#3

Thanks! I’m creating a note file by myself where, at least, i’m dividing the grammar point by sections based by relation of usage.
(if related to 〜て form or Relative clause or Stem Verbs for example)

you’ll be the first I’ll let to know if this succeed. :slight_smile:

#4

When you find a better order for presenting Japanese grammar, let me know. :smile:
I even had a rant one time because of how frustrated I am with the JLPT order.
How the heck are JLPT N-levels decided?
(heads up, the thread had several interesting comments but also several “less useful” comments)

That said, I would say the following:
JLPT – The most standardized order of grammar, although it seems to be ordered from most-useful-for-foreign-adults to least-useful-for-foreign-adults. As such, they teach polite form before casual form, and leave both extremely formal written language and very casual spoken language as “advanced” topics. The problem (in my opinion) is that you’re basically expected to simply memorize grammar points rather than understand a system of rules.
Tae Kim – The most logical in terms of trying to teach Japanese grammar using a building block approach, where new structures are built on previously learned topics. This system is useful at the beginning stages but falls short at the later stages.
other internet gurus (Cure Dolly, etc) – They usually have attention grabbers like “the real way to learn Japanese”. They have a lot of very good insight into particular aspects of the language but I haven’t seen a comprehensive language-teaching series that is widely accepted or could be used as classroom material.

I think the problem with teaching Japanese grammar is that all of these happen at the same time:
– polite, dictionary/casual, honorific and humble forms
– spoken Japanese vs written Japanese
– Chinese-origin vs Japanese-origin
– classical Japanese vs modern Japanese
– sometimes a blurry line between “verb”, “adjective”, and “noun”.

…All of the above are used together in modern Japanese. So how do you teach grammar that is a mish-mash of several influences? I think it’s similar to trying to explain English pronunciation rules – modern English is influenced by several languages, with different pronunciation rules, and it’s possible to state “rules” but it’s not easy and not straightforward.
…Also, how do you teach both the learner who just wants survival Japanese and the learner who wants to learn everything?

p.s. I’ve also been studying Japanese for years. …I feel your pain. :sweat_smile:
p.p.s. Just my two cents. I’m sure there’s other opinions out there.

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#5

Your TK summary is pretty much spot on, which is why a lot of communities recommend it as the starting point which will take you to a very good stage of comprehension (relatively speaking.) The only problem with using the TK route on BP is that both websites are structured differently, and BP’s example sentences and other points sometimes work off of previously learned grammar which may have not been taught in TK.

There’s just no perfect way to go about it hahaha. I believe when I first started I did a very brief read through of all TK’s essential grammar sections. I didn’t try to memorize much, just understand the basic concept then I went in the default BP order and just trusted they would lead me on the most sensible path. With BP adding even more beginner things like negative I-adjectives, slowly you’ll be able to truly start from 0 and not be confused much.

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