GrammarInTheWild - Daily Discussion

Summary

Lit: Come now submissively, go to the police (for me).
‘Come on now, turn your self in’ seems to be the context here

直せなかったので、だれかが手伝ってもらう必要です。

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This one is confusing me without context, so I have 2 translations

Translation 1

I will get the police to go without complaint

Translation 2

I will get you to meekly go to the police

Explanation

The main confusion here is if に is the person they are going to ask/get to do it or に is the place the person will go to. One could imagine that someone could convince the police to go (to investigate) at a place, or leave an area. Of course, one would expect something 出てもらう to be more common in the latter case.

For the second possible translation, it could be that someone will get someone to go to the police. But then, おとなしく feels a little weird. Is it some criminal they are trying to get themselves turned in? I went with “you” since I imagined the person saying this to a person like “I’m going to get you to turn yourself in.”

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...

Well… I want you to obediently go to the police.

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So much manga! :open_mouth:

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August 10th Translation

Notes :
おとなしい and おとなしく generally have a slightly different nuance. The adjective form often does mean ‘obediently’, or even ‘docile’. However, when it is used as an adverb, it can mean to do something without ‘causing a fuss/kicking up a stink’. This is especially true when directed at another person.

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August 11th
ずっと

It will be street signs after this for a few days, to take a break from manga!

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summary

I wanted to watch over the whole time… (???)

Ugg, I’m super lost on this whole thing when I probably shouldn’t be. Ffffff------ What is going on with みまもっていてやりたかった?
Is that みまもる ⇒ みまもっている
with やる ⇒ やりたい ⇒ やりたかった?

What even is てやる? I stumbled on this but is that even? And then I just have no idea where to slide in the whole もっと bit. Like, ずっと見守っている would be something along the lines of watching over continuously/the whole time, right? Normally I think of もっと as more/pushing something further, but how the *$(#&@ does that work with ずっと at the same time!?

BRAIN EXPLODING IN 5… 4… 3…

explosion

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Summary

Interpretation: I was continuously watching over [it] more, and I wanted to try [it].

2nd attempt

After seeing ccookf 's link (good research @ccookf ! …also, you have all the pieces :slight_smile: ), which I didn’t know that てやる is the casual version of てあげる…

Interpretation: I wanted to do you a favor and continuously watch over [it] more.

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Side note about ~てやる

@ccookf @FredKore

Yep, it is the casual form of ~てあげる (strange that we don’t have this mentioned on the actual grammar page. I will change this now). I actually think that ~てやる is much more common than ~てあげる, and can be used more freely than ~てあげる. By this I mean that you don’t have to worry about it sounding patronizing.

It comes from the kanji 遣る, which just means ‘to undertake’. But really just sounds the same as ‘do’ in 99% of situations. It is only a slightly more formal form of ‘do’, in the same way that 用いる ‘utilize’, is only a slightly more formal form of 使う ‘use’. So that tinnnnny bit of added formality makes it sound polite, without the direct ‘I am doing this -for- you’ that ~てあげる implies.

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I was just looking at ~てあげる this morning, funny it should come up here as well. Thanks for the added background. :slight_smile:

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Gotta chime in since the grammar and example sentence made me remember the lyrics of "Best Friend" by Kiroro!

ずっと見守みまもっているからって笑顔えがおでいつものようにきしめた。

My age isn’t exactly a secret through my profile, but this is making it more obvious :stuck_out_tongue:

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Translation

I wanted to watch over you much more often

Also @Asher

てやる

I thought that やる and てやる were much more rude than あげる and てあげる, to the extent where it’s considered to be rather maculine/vulgar, and IRL many people stick to てあげる, even for animals?

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More ~てやる stuff

I think it possibly comes from people not wanting to be fussed over, and the tendency of younger people these days having much more western influence than in the past.
~てやる is definitely not more polite, it’s just ‘not patronizing’, which I believe is why a lot of people use it more often. There are set phrases in Japanese that that will basically never change, like when talking about animals, or when watering a plant etc. These cases can almost be thought of as stand alone verbs, as people don’t even think about politeness when they use it, they just use it cause that’s what should be said in that situation.

When you are speaking to friends though, (or people that you want to make it clear that you are trying to build a ‘chummy’ atmosphere with), ~てやる is probably better, as ~てあげる creates a distance between you and the person you are speaking to, in the same way that using です over だ does.

やる is a different thing altogether, and again has a different nuance to ~てやる. It is better to not think of them as being related. やる just by itself is kinda similar to ~てあげる in the way that there are a lot of specific actions (playing video games etc) that are associated with it.

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More てやる

I’m just confused because I feel like I have read differently. Like, in this thread, there is a lot of discussion on it, and people seem to say that adult women don’t really use てやる outside of heated arguments (「殺してやる!」), when talking to children (「X君、これを庭にいる弟に渡してやって」), or certain rural areas. I’m particularly referencing No.4/No.8 (they are the same person).

There is also discussion on how てあげる in general moved down to where てやる used to be, like this page and this Stack Exchange answer, and how て差し上げる is now the proper polite language, since てあげる can be considered rude.

I’ve obviously seen a lot of てやる in anime/manga, but I’ve put it down as part of 役割語. I’m just trying to resolve how to merge what you are saying with the stuff I’ve read previously.

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〜てやる, banter

Just had a chat to my partner about it, and she agreed that she wouldn’t personally use it (as a woman), but hears it used a lot.

I think maybe where the wires get crossed is when people use it to just mean they are doing something (for the other person), but moreso just because they want to do it themselves. For example if I was having lunch with my partner and she offered to pay (by using 〜てあげる), I could decline by using 〜てやる to insist that I be the one that pay.

In that case it would come across like -
‘I wouldn’t dream of it’, or
‘No way, I’ll pay!’, or
‘I’ll handle it, put your dang wallet away!’

Although it ‘sounds’ rough, to a native speaker it would be more of a ‘we are on the same level, this is friendly banter’ type of feeling.

Because that kind of situation happens regularly, that’s probably where the primary use comes from.

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Summary

I wanted to (continuously) watch over them (those bastards) a bit more…

働き始めてからずっと日本語の勉強についてあまり時間がない。

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...

I wanted to be especially vigilant…

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Summary

Forever I have been watching and planning…

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August 11th Translation

Notes:
The rudeness associated with ~てやる does not come from it implicitly being rude, but from the extreme closeness that it conveys. Using this phrase with someone that you do not already have a very well established relationship with (same level) can result in perceived rudeness or lack of respect. In English this is similar to ‘to get fresh’ with someone, or to just overconfidently assume that you are on equal footing with them/above them.

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August 12th

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