It's getting harder to recommend Bunpro

I think setting a scope as large as “guiding users from nothing to fluency” is a bit ambitious and will lead to a lack of focus in development. There are so many factors that contribute towards fluency.

Personally (and this is just personally), I think Bunpro should stick tightly to being a grammar resource. Developing grammar explanations aimed at all levels and interests would be for the best. I.e., have serious long explanations of the copula aimed at more advanced learners/using native linguistic jargon as well as the more basic 10 second version for when people are first learning. Improve/fix the SRS, which is currently just a bit of an odd system compared to more serious SRS algos, and think about SRS in relation to learning grammar specifically (which is its own kettle of fish). Create longer articles about the general concepts of Japanese grammar and language (make them optional or sticky them to the front of each N-level) which aren’t in the SRS system but act as a level appropriate reference for understanding Japanese grammar (it is left-branching, it is agglutinative, etc). Currently that “meta” information is scattered around the various lessons but it should be introduced in a more organised manner. Hyperlink any native linguistic jargon to a master page with all terms listed and explained in serious detail, that way the linguistics lovers can fill their boots but it won’t take up space on the explanation page, etc. Link to native resources as well, even if they aren’t seemingly level appropriate they can be used by people who are reviewing earlier material etc. Just, there are a million ways to improve the grammar side of Bunpro (which, again, I think just personally should be the focus).

I also think the addition of vocab is a distraction and vocab is better learnt elsewhere but I can appreciate that some users wanted/want it so that is fine. Just so long as it doesn’t become a distraction from the grammar side of things.

Also, to the Bunpro staff reading this thread, I know it is a bit negative as it is lots of critical feedback but I use the site daily and I will continue using it so long as it is useful and improving and I do recommend it to others - so, it is coming from a place of love. The recent improved hints was an excellent step forward, for example. Keep up the good work!

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I see where the confusion comes from then, thanks for linking some kind of source at least.

I think we need to understand what the problem statement here really is because there’s clearly some disagreement. To do so, we need to identify exactly what result you are trying to achieve (and not just in this conversation, but in the bunpro grammar point in general).

Your claim is that there is only one な with three different usages.

Let’s assume your claim is correct and that, indeed, there is one single な. You already acknowledged (and this is also supported by your linked article) that in 古文 there are three different and very specific usages of it (in modern Japanese we can identify only two of those so let’s focus on them from now on):

  1. Imperative negative (するな!)
  2. Emotional/emphatic particle (美味しいな〜)

What do you think is the benefit from the point of view of a language learner in thinking that these two particles are the same? Let’s analyse what this actually entails in reality:

  1. The meanings are very different
  2. Their grammatical usage is very different (they attach to different parts of speech, they allow different parts of speech to attach to them differently, etc)
  3. They are not interchangeable

Is there anything I’m missing here? How is calling these two particles “the same” going to benefit anyone?

Maybe I can be convinced this is a good choice if you put up a convincing-enough argument to support it from the point of view of a learner.


On the other hand, if you want to stick to this explanation strictly because you want to fit one specific model of your grammar to the whole site, then we have to look at this from a different perspective. You claim that it is the same particle used in different ways. Now you need to define what it means for two particles to be the same.

If you were to ask me, the following is the definition I would be willing to accept.

Two words/grammar points/particles can be considered the same if they fit at least one (or more) of the following criteria:

  1. They mean the same thing
  2. They connect to the same parts of speech (noun, verbs, certain conjugations, adjectives, etc)
  3. They have a shared etymology / they come from the same origin

Now, these two な particles clearly don’t mean the same thing, so the first point is already out.

Point 2 is also out because these two particles are used differently and connect to different parts of speech: The imperative negative connects to 終止形 of verbs (するな! etc) while the emphatic な can go after non-verbs (美味しいな, etc). On top of that, what is allowed to come after the な itself differs as we saw in my example earlier (よな vs なよ , etc).

The last point we need to look at is the etymology. Your link talks about 古文 and how there’s three different usages of the 終助詞 「な」. Note that it does not claim that all three of them have the same origin nor come from the same word/stem/root/whatever. It’s simply stating that there’s three types of な particle with very clearly different usages (see point 1 and point 2). This is neither necessary nor sufficient evidence that they share the same etymology (Actually many other sources seem to claim they do not, see Etymology 2 and Etymology 4 here). Truth be told, wiktionary might not be a reliable source but so far I haven’t seen any other strictly etymological source that supports your claim. And just to be clear, let me repeat again that the article you shared does not explicitly mention that and is not a source that would support this claim.

So, under these definitions, you cannot claim that those two な are the same particle, just like you cannot claim that 漢字 and 感じ are the same word because they are both かんじ and are both nouns. They have a different meaning, a different usage, and a different origin.


In conclusion, myself personally I’d love to find out that indeed these two な usages stem/originate from a single shared origin (although I still refuse to consider them “the same particle” in modern Japanese but that’s just a matter of perspective), however you need to show a bit stronger evidence than what you shared so far. But, besides that, you still need to ask yourself what benefit does this bring to a learner? And the answer to that is literally none. I can’t honestly see any positive aspect in telling someone that するな and 美味しいな are “the same particle” other than some kind of weird pride in your own internal mental model of grammar (that doesn’t seem to be that well rooted in reality). It’s just doing your own community a disservice.


Extra

So I admit I’m not a 古文 or 漢文 expert but I’ve done some more digging and found some stuff that might interest you. For example this page talks about various 終助詞 including 哉 (かな → だなぁ). Looking further into 哉 on kanjipedia we can find:

①かな。…だなあ。詠嘆の助字。「快哉」

(seems like there might not have been a distinct difference between かな and just (だ)な in 漢文? not sure)

On the other hand if we want to look into the prohibition usage as negative imperative, we can find stuff like this. The example is pretty poignant too:

「…すること」と呼応して禁止を表わす漢文訓読語。…するな。…することなかれ。

and especially the example sentence:

「雷の神、人夫(おほむたから)を犯すこと無(マナ)

Which seems to imply it might have been 犯すこと無 → 犯すことな → 犯すな but this is entirely my conjecture so don’t take it as a fact.

Regardless, if my understanding is correct and emphatic な came from 哉 and prohibition な came from 勿 then to me that’s some pretty strong evidence that means they are quite different. This is still a big if though.

NOTE: I had more links and references but bunpro forums consider me a “new user” despite being on this platform for 4+ years (but never the forums), so I can’t link more than 3 links per post. Feel free to ask if you want more and I can provide more.

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I agree, it’s better to do one thing really well and exceed at it. In an ideal world you would want the best of everything, but realistically it is not likely to happen. I think an appropriate scope is to focus on one thing and get it down really well, then perhaps move on the next big thing to help users achieve fluency.

It really depends on what Bunpro wants to do as a company and how it allocates resources. Japanese grammar is hard and there’s not a lot of great resources to learn it. God know how many SRS vocab solutions there are and it would be very challenging to top the versatile Anki app.

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But, besides that , you still need to ask yourself what benefit does this bring to a learner ?

This is an excellent point. I feel that this should be echoed. (And also just excellent high-effort post.)

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Hey! I did indeed read your feedback. I even went back and read your onsite feedback to get a better picture of the whole.

I apologize for overlooking the “また「伝達態度のモダリティ」としての「な」を主に扱う関係上、1の禁止の「な」や2の命令・要求の終助詞「な」も除外する” statement within the link Asher shared, as well as for not drawing the connection you were trying to make in your reply.

You are correct in that while the link addresses the various uses of the 終助詞-な, it does point out that based on how it is generally used, it is excluding it from the 「伝達態度のモダリティ」. I have edited my earlier reply to cross out where I misspoke. Sorry for that!

Within the content team, we do quite a lot of research into Japanese grammar and the language in general. We have quite a few theories about how or why things are the way they are in modern Japanese. Like many of the existing theories that other’s have speculated upon, there isn’t a lot of concrete evidence or well written papers to support them (I guess that is why they are still theories :joy: ). In this particular case we still strongly feel there is a connection to the 聞き手 - 話し手 relationship even in the prohibitive な and will continue to research and build upon it.

Regardless of the validity of the various theories we speculate on, we did indeed jump the gun by including that speculation within the grammar point write up.

Furthermore, even if one day we did want to sit down to write an academic paper on any given theory and submit it for peer review, if we then chose to include it on the site, it would be best included on a future advanced interest writeup and specifically denoted that it is just a theory based on X, Y and Z.

As is, we have updated the Prohibitive な to remove the speculative information and we will add a grammar point that addresses the use of な similarly to how ね is used. Going forward we will keep an eye out and try to avoid including any information that is still only a theory, especially in the introductory writeups.

We do sincerely appreciate the feedback we get from all users, especially the feedback that is hopefully constructive criticism. Thank you for choosing to take time out of your day to help us make Bunpro the best it can be. :bowing_man:

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Leaving aside the questionability of including personal theories at all without clearly marking them as your personal speculation for a second, your entire theory hinges on the idea that な’s inherent focus on the speaker somehow indicates a verb as not for the listener.

な, on the other hand, shows that something is for the speaker only, or only the speaker has intimate knowledge of it. This is why it comes across as “don’t” (when used after a verb), as you are literally saying “this (verb) is not for you!”

This entire theory then falls apart once you realize that not every な after a dictionary form verb is prohibitive.
With that in mind your current description of な continues to be incorrect, or at least misguiding.

When attached to the base (dictionary) form of a verb, it has the nuance of strongly demanding that someone ‘not’ do something

Also looking at one of your theories, which also seems like it could be partially responsible for the な ordeal, is frankly anything but hope inspiring. I would argue that even having a theory as clearly ridicilous as this posted by Bunpro staff is problematic, as people are likely to conflate “works for Bunpro” and “know what he’s talking about”. This is especially true thanks to your design decision of replacing staff’s level with the staff badge.

Overall I was already hesitant to recommend Bunpro, but did so anyway because I know it works for a lot of people, but after this whole ordeal, especially learning about your values as a teacher, I will avoid recommending Bunpro as much as possible.

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This thread is really reinforcing why I try to avoid speaking Japanese in front of non-native speakers. This is true even here in Japan. It almost always inevitably turns into some sort of weird competition where people start trying to “out Japanese” each other and beat their chest about their Japanese knowledge on the most minute of things.

I don’t want to defend Bunpro, because honestly whatever, but this thread is almost up to 40 extremely lengthy posts arguing about な and conflating it into this INCREDIBLY weird dramatic story about some company-wide collapse of culture.

Over な

Beyond that:

The fact this is something even being complained about is hilarious because it shows a level of voracious toxicity over something so petty. It also just shows a lack of understanding how that number even works.

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Totally open to being wrong as often as possible to find a quicker way to what is right.

A lot of extra research has been done in the time since that post, both on etymological history, and the history of the integration of kanji in the language. Note that that post was 3 years ago… The amount of time it takes to complete an undergraduate degree (not something I did in that time, just giving a reference of time for what can be learned in 3 years), and a very… very long time before I started working at Bunpro.

I am not avoiding this conversation because I have nothing to add to it, but because I feel that no matter what I say, it will just result in a revolving conversation that will not help anybody. Whether I am right or wrong, I and the rest of the team that contributes to our ongoing effort to produce quality content are more than happy to wear those mistakes and learn from them. But it is not something that will stop any of us from having our own views. We are just people, like you.

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But this is like saying “you have to memorize the hints” and it is not good for a methodology or even SRS.

In another threads similar to this actually I even tried to explain the difficulty (and similar situation as kaniwani) but there were those users who study Japanese like 10-12h a day and they always replied “oh, it’s the nuance”. I even stopped checking threads here in bunpro, because it seemed bunpro is intended only for those hardcore users.

If this tool is aimed at people who have lots of free time and get the nuance, well, it is not for me in the end.

The hints aren’t perfect, but at least one time out of three all I have to do is think about the word choice in them and I’ll know which one the options I’m supposed to go with. Not because I memorized the hints (that inevitably happens eventually), but because I took a while to reflect and contrast the options. That’s not perfect, but much better than “can you say it another way?” Synonym hell is part of being in the intermediate trenches: we’re still using a precarious study scaffolding to reach higher we otherwise be able. Kamesame came up with “yellow answers” to mitigate this, BunPro just started experimenting with the new hints, but it’s also just mitigation. For now, I’m very pleased with the attempt.

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I read this thread with interest as I’ve also noticed some of the same issues in the more verbose grammar explanations, and have had to make caveats about these when recommending Bunpro to friends.

I applaud the Bunpro team for taking the criticism on board, fixing the errors, and removing the unfounded speculation from the な explanation. As others have mentioned it is still a bit troubling that the speculation ended up in the explanation in the first place (and that there was so much initial resistance to removing it). This quotation from Jake also concerns me:

We have quite a few theories about how or why things are the way they are in modern Japanese. Like many of the existing theories that other’s have speculated upon, there isn’t a lot of concrete evidence or well written papers to support them (I guess that is why they are still theories :joy: ). In this particular case we still strongly feel there is a connection to the 聞き手 - 話し手 relationship even in the prohibitive な and will continue to research and build upon it.

If the thorough rebuttals in this thread have not shaken your faith in this theory, that suggests it is no longer a theory but an assumption, and unfounded assumptions are very dangerous in linguistics because they lead you to reinterpret the available evidence in order to support your assumption, often without realizing you are doing so. (This is how conspiracy theories like Flat Earth work.) You can see examples of this earlier in the thread (e.g., posting an article as evidence for the theory when a statement in that article directly contradicts the theory) as well as in some prior threads where the Bunpro team’s speculations are discussed. In order for a hypothesis to be useful, you have to be willing to reject it when the evidence does not support it. It also has to be falsifiable in the first place, i.e., you have to be able to lay out beforehand what it would take to indicate that the hypothesis is not correct and should be rejected.

If Bunpro wants to make a novel contribution to the field of Japanese grammar (e.g. potentially submitting an article for peer review as mentioned above), I would encourage you to look into consulting professional academic linguists about it (or better yet, bring one on board). Speculation without the appropriate training on how to evaluate linguistic evidence, create a testable hypothesis, etc., is likely to lead you astray and result in errors.

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Have the same issues here. I’d say this partly because of the increasing difficulty in the intermediate-advanced grammar and my lack of understanding it properly, but I also think because there are many grammar points with slightly different nuances it gets hard to distinguish them and have the srs sort it out.

I also have my own doubts continuing with bunpro, despite having bought the lifetime sub. It might proof useful again later on, but yeah definitely have that maybe it’s time to move on feeling.

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Thank you. In that case, please make sure to remove this example as well.

Despite this, it is important to know that this の is exactly the same as the possessive の (with the following word simply being left out).
あの、あなたがっているですか。

I feel like I’m repeating myself but again. This is not the same grammar. We’re not looking at “Noun+の(omitted noun)”. There is no possessive の in this sentence. 乗っている is a verb.

Thank you for this, sincerely.

Thank you. Another possibility could be to add a reference to the grammar point page which links to a forum post discussing the theory. That would also be a more productive way to dialogue about things than clogging up the feedback pipeline.

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Is it possible that you’re perhaps looking at the wrong part of the writeup? The part about it being possessive refers to the preceding examples. The information following the final sentence refers to that particular (non-possessive) usage, and that it will be discussed in a separate grammar point.

Edit - I can see how it could easily be interpreted that the above paragraph is about the following sentence. I’ll add the final sentence to a caution box, so that it completely separates it away from the main theme of the grammar point.

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This example sentence has no place on the page for the grammar point in question. It’s something completely different and belongs on its own page.

You literally have one sentence saying “this is exactly the same as the possessive の” and then immediately show an example that is not the same at all. Jake already mentioned that you’ll be adding separate pages for this kind of の. Put it there instead.

That’s amazing! Last time I checked it was either 3 or 5 globally, so I opted for 3.
Which felt too much for me in terms of grammar, but not enough in terms of Vocab.
Thanks for clearing it up, you guys are awesome <3

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We very regularly have sentences from slightly different nuances of similar grammar points specifically in caution sections when we think there is a possibility that users will mistake them in the future, or at some point in the learning process.

I’ll have a chat with the rest of the content team when they are awake (sorry, very late here), and we’ll then make a decision about whether a caution section will help users (will keep it), or hinder them (will delete it).

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Yeah I mean the more I learn the more I see small differences/errors in the materials. There have been many situations where I showed Bunpro materials to a tutor and they were basically like “wtf”.

I’ve used these apps daily for several years:

  • iKnow - easily the best overall, huge amount of vocab, sentences, and listening content
  • WaniKani - best for kanji - nothing else comes close
  • Bunpro - best for grammar - nothing else comes close

Are there some errors in each of these? Yeah ofc. But I would be hugely disappointed if any of these didn’t exist.

IMO the goal of language and language-learning apps is to increase understanding. There is so much nuance in language and it’s impossible to be 100% precise at all times, even as a native speaker. Some errors are acceptable and it’s all still progress on the path to fluency.

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Dude this thread is so frustrating to read. There’s a way to bring up mistakes and suggestions without doomsday clickbait about the inevitable collapse of Bunpro as a whole, and without publicly singling out individual staff members in what seems to be an attempt at public humiliation.

If I, a Westerner, felt that the whole approach to bringing up criticism here has been quite unnerving, I can’t imagine how Japanese people would feel…

To the Bunpro staff: I am very impressed with your level of courteousness. I frankly wanted to pull my hair out multiple times when reading the tone in some of these posts. And you all still took the opportunity to extract the feedback amidst the vitriol. Thank you for all that you do, and the way you go about doing it.

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Hello, thank you for getting back to me! I was not expecting you to change your writeups or add new functions. As I pointed out, it is probably impossible to make everyone 100% happy. I just wanted to share that I felt the same about all the technical terms. If others like them, good for them, since I think users like me can simply skim over those terms. Some people may need even expect them.

As much as I personally don’t see much value in learning about different -詞 terms, I actually like the Fun Facts and other Kanji history additions a lot, since they often help reinforce some grammar or make it easier to understand the “why”.

Really appreciate the work you did so far. All in all, I am very happy with bunpro :slight_smile:

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