Yes! That’s a good example of what I meant! 
Same goes for every language which doesn’t have a writing system at all. All those people are able to communicate just fine with each other and so didn’t need to read and write just to be able to speak their language.
And again: Of course, textbooks and schools - and with that reading and writing - do have a place. They are just not “the one” or “the best” approach for learning everything.
I really love how this comment echoes a phrase I started using when I started my self-study journey with Japanese a few years ago, 20 years after studying it in college for a year and falling off after that. When I was first exposed to all of the new ideas in methodology, I suddenly felt like what they do in those Japanese classes was quite dated, and had this realization:
You learn every language the same way you learn the first one.
By which I don’t mean to say that you use the same exact learning methods, but that your brain builds true fluency via the same fundamental processes. As an adult who already speaks at least one language well, you can leverage some tools that a child cannot, but ultimately you must let the wetware build its underlying semantic web through practice — memorizing things can only build a scaffolding that supports that process.
I do want to also seize upon the area of nuance that I think @soundjona was trying to point out, which is that even when learning their native language, literacy is not required, but it is very helpful for building vocabulary, and between 3 - 4 years old most children (who would still be making mistakes like “I drinked my juice”) are already learning the alphabet and once they can read a little they’re using picture books — usually the ones they already have memorized because their parents have read it to them a thousand times. They’re not textbooks, but they are texts. They can then use this literacy to read new things, which gives them more opportunity to interact with the language.
Furthermore, consider that children are generally being taught language explicitly by their parents as well. They’re being told “this is your nose! These are your toes!” And they’re being corrected on their mistakes. It would be an oversimplification to say the children acquire language purely by listening.
To formalize the idea— I like to think of things as being in basically one of two categories:
Practice, in which you actually use the language in some fashion, and which builds your true fluency.
Scaffolding, in which you intellectually learn facts about a language, like what it’s letters look like, what words mean, and how grammar works.
Anyone who been doing some listening practice, and suddenly has heard in perfect clarity some vocabulary or a grammar feature that they just recently learned, has experienced how amazingly powerful building scaffolding is, but they also know first hand that scaffolding alone does not create any fluency.
And lastly I want to cheer for
There’s no way that I would have made the transition from studying SRS material to consuming native material successfully if I hadn’t heard the advice that you need to become comfortable with partial understanding and focus on volume above 100% comprehension — I would have burned out so quickly.
@semanticman
Yeah. It’s astounding how adaptable the human brain is regarding language learning in varied conditions.
I mean, Helen Keller managed to master English to the point of becoming a successful writer. So if we all just put our best efforts into our studies we will with time become fluent in Japanese, no matter which methods we choose.
I can’t add a thing to your post, since I totally agree with you. But I have to write some more letters, just to get this appreciation for your in-depth answer out there.
Same for you: Nothing to add due to agreement, but I need more letters to send you my appreciation!
Agree and I’d even push it further : Mastering a language has too many different dimensions to be able to really split them explicitly. And unfortunately, “Fluency” is an amalgam that try to define “a level sufficient to be native-like”. But unfortunately, all native don’t have the same mastery. For example, I’m learning Children of Dune right now in my mother tongue, french, and many words were completely unknown to me.
Things that I think we often forget :
And thus, why I think how we learn extra languages can’t be totally seen like learning your first language : We know some of those things, we know that languages also describe immaterial/abstract concepts, which, for our first language, we discovered alongside the language. Things like “The crimson sea echoed the tragedy of those who fell …” would not have been interpreted correctly when you were still a kid, even if someone explained the words to you.
But now that you’re an adult, a lot of abstract/immaterial things are already wired in your brain. That’s why I think things like しまう can be sometimes difficult to learn how to use at first, because there is so no 1:1 mapping with a concept we have in EN/FR.
To learn your first language, you had an “empty inner voice” that got filled at the same time you apprehended the world and the words people around you used to describe it. For the subsequent languages, based on how distant they are from the first one, more “dedicated effort” will be necessary to be able create new constructs (based on culture, social expectation, history, …) because no one will ever play the roles your parents played at first, when they made your “education” (teaching you those things)
So, just to summarize, I don’t disagree at all with anything that is said, but I like to really insist on why, for me, immersion might not be sufficient, especially when immersion is convoluted with “anime” or “tv shows”. Once again, I’ve been using english almost exclusively for the ~15 past years on the internet, consuming EN-only content and worked for 3 years in a multinational environment, but when I visit an US state where accents are strong, I always feel like I’m a novice in terms of english fluency.
I strongly agree with this. Still after all these years using English, hearing people being talked about in the context of “race” sounds so wrong and inappropriate in my ears. If I used the word “ras” in Sweden to refer to a person the people around me would think I’m some sort of a race biology believer. And if I used it at work I wouldn’t be surprised if it resulted in a meeting with my boss, reprimanding me.
It’s interesting to see that if you check the french wiki : Race humaine — Wikipédia, basically “Race” is closer to the concepts of “Animal Breeds” and mostly due to genetics, and it’s a rejected concept to describe human because genetic differences is greater inside the same population than when comparing two different population (Basically : Two guys with the same “race” will have more different genes than if you compare two different groups like asian and indian for example)
However, in “Human Race” EN wiki page, it talks about more broad differences, before pointing out that the US gov decided in 2023 to stop using that term) : Race (human categorization) - Wikipedia
So it’s really a good example on how, the same word in two very close languages, can however really have very different connotations! Same here in Belgium, using the word “race” alone would already get you in a lot of trouble while it seems perfectly fine to use it in the US (at least, until now).
Hell yeah, my native languages’ texts are not much better than those in English. On the other hand it might be because I was reading to little, or was reading just messengers where the texts are shity
I’m a native English speaker and I also have no idea what this person was saying 
I’ve heard women saying phrases like “a girl can only do so much” but I’ve never heard this construction and I’m…well sadly very online, so I don’t buy that its common slang.
Whatever corner of the internet this person hails from seems to have their own lexicon that is definitely not commonly known or used, so please don’t try to emulate 
lol no it doesn’t and it makes me question why someone who struggles with writing comprehensible English is giving advice tbh.
I think @Ryo comment added value to the discussion, so that seems a little harsh to say. One odd formulation in an otherwise good comment doesn’t mean that a user should be singled out to be excluded.
Bunpro is a learning community, right? A little more inclusive tone would be nicer for everyone here, in my opinion.
They explained their post and it made sense to me, I don’t get why you’d disregard what they have to say?
It’s unnecessary 
I decided to get Satori Reader. That combined with this advice has helped a ton.
What seems to have helped is reading it over and over again until I have a pretty good idea of what it says, and have gotten decently comfortable with the new vocab, then listening to it and imagining the scene in my head.
At first I couldn’t tell if it worked, but sure enough when I hear a sentence from the story I can automatically visualize it now.
I’m still not sure if I’m just visualizing it because I remember the story from reading it, but either way I’m willing to bet it will have a pretty big effect after reading dozens of them.
Where did you find a Japanese person that was willing to have conversations with a beginner?
I use Hello Talk, it can be spammy and I would use the app with common sense, some people use it as a dating site - but I have met my best friend there and will be visiting her when I go to Tokyo next. You dont need a paid account, I just use it to chat and do sentence practice. There are others too like iTalki (I think thats the name).
Also you can download Todaii for free and read/listen to 3 news articles a day. it also has a lessons section with beginners listening which are only a few mins long
NHK Sync is a really good free alternative to Todaii!
I think videos created by いろいろな日本語 (recommended in this thread
Plugging the いろいろな日本語 YT channel - cannot say enough good things about it ) is amazing. I’ve watched 1 so far which goes through the first few pages of the anime Yotsuba. He breaks down each manga panel and discusses not just what is happening but also explains vocabulary and grammar usage (e.g. casual vs formal). I’m happy to say that I understood most of what he said.
I brute forced my way through this with literally hundreds, if not a couple thousand hours of continuous podcast and music listening. Only recently have I started to 分かる song lyrics without stopping to think. Casual intermediate level podcast listening has been mostly good for a few months now… unless my brain stops me and asks for English, then I lose all ability to understand for a few minutes 