Non-English speakers, how do you deal with Bunpro?

Bunpro
#1

I’m not a native English speaker but German and after getting through N5 and N4 here quite easily I now have some problems with the English translations of Bunpro and I wonder how others deal with that.

In a few days I’ll finish N3 and especially the last third was getting problematic. E.g. Japanese has a bazillion sentence structures that are represented by “even” in English and it’s quite hard to differentiate all of them. In German I could come up with translations that don’t use the word “sogar” (the German word for “even”) and reduce the confusion a bit.

My English comprehension level is on a near-native level, I can read English books and watch English movies without even noticing that it’s English. I also have absolutely no problem with the English descriptions and translations on Bunpro. So I can’t improve anything by getting better in English.

But having English between German and Japanese is still a problem. Mainly because German is far more complex when it comes to grammar and some of the English translations seem to be far to off from the Japanese original, I could find a much closer German translation.

I’m also kind of scared when it comes to all the keigo stuff in N2 and N1. German has a lot of polite and humble structures that are very similar to Japanese. So going through that stuff in English where I guess most of the time there will be just a “(polite)” behind the phrase seems to be very counterproductive.

How did you deal with those problems?

I’m thinking about using Bunpro as a source but creating my own cards in Anki from N2 on. But on the one hand that will cost a lot of time that I don’t really have. And on the other hand Bunpro has some nice features like giving hints for identical translations if you picked the one that was not meant. That is very difficult to recreate in Anki.

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#2

We don’t have a solution for this current issue as the only other languages on the team are Spanish and Swedish, but we had discussed translating Bunpro into other languages to make it accessible to people who don’t speak much English.

To non native speakers of English reading this thread, I would be curious to know your opinion on how much of a demand/desire there is for a localization of Bunpro.

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#3

I just simply dug in other resources until I feel all my doubts are cleared. But most of the time I just searched in youtube for channels that explain the grammar point by a japanese speaker or someone that delivers the explanations only in japanese. That usually is enough for me.

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#4

If it is any consolation, I am a native English speaker and I broadly ignore the translations as much as possible. I will glance at them to get the gist but I try and think about the Japanese in terms of Japanese as much as possible. Sometimes I actually think a different translation would be better, at least pedagogically. If anything you have an advantage in knowing another language through which you can understand Japanese grammar differently.

On a sidenote,

German is far more complex when it comes to grammar

Not sure why some people think this, normally about their native language, but this kind of thing is so entirely relative to what languages you know and what you happen to explicitly know about those languages. I have Japanese students tell me that the lack of cases in English is something that makes it more complex whereas I have native English speaking friends who find cases in German and Japanese to be something that makes them more complex.

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#5

i really wanted to recommend bunpro to someone i know whos a native chinese speaker (speaks english too but using bunpro in english would get in their way i think)since they are really struggling with grammar atm and bunpro has helped me so much :frowning:

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#6

I’m a Baguette (French guy).

I’m not sure translating Bunpro into French, German … is a good idea (at least not a priority). Everywhere we go (reddit, discord, forums, Shin Kanzen Master, KKLC, Sou matome, Anki, Wikipedia, Amazon jp …) everything is in English (or sometimes Chinese). For those that only speak French, using the French resources is a terrible idea. We have Minna no Nihongo for complete beginners but that’s all :smiley: Nothing great for the intermediate/advanced level, no kanji pre-make Anki decks with French keywords …

For those that only speak one language, if that’s not English, I really suggest them to learn English first. It’s a must-have skill in everyday’s life (Except if you life in Japan, then Japanese is your top priority). Learning English really makes everything easier.

From your post, your English seems really good, comprehension shouldn’t be as issue. It’s more the amount of similar grammar points that’s causing some trouble. Quite often I’m like “They use the same word in English, but in French we have some nuances” so it’s quite the opposite, it’s kinda helpful. Those speaking only English are probably struggling too in the synonym hell.

Here is a list of ideas to help you better understand those grammar points :

  • More exposure
  • Use more than one resource (books + YouTube video + grammar dictionary, …), or not using Bunpro as your main resource (I’m finishing Minna no Nihongo 2, then moving to Tobira + Shin Kanzen Master)
  • Moving to 100% in Japanese to see how they describe the grammar point (I’m not there yet, but at N3/N2+, some grammar resources like Shin Kanzen Master switch to 100% Japanese).
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#7

I took a similar approach for the last maybe 80 N3 grammar points. My very personal problem with that is just time. I learned a lot Japanese stuff just by going through SRS on the long 110 minutes commute I have every day. That’s not really effective learning but I came quite far with it, so it works somehow. Working through native material to pick up grammar structure is quite a problem for me when it comes to time. And I can’t really do that on the train (I tried). I have to reserve spare time at home for it and that is very difficult because learning Japanese for me is just a completely useless hobby that I’m already investing too much time into if I’m being honest.

When it comes to complexity I usually can come up with more simple and distinct meanings for Japanese grammar in German while the English translation often uses a lot of words to get it across. When it comes to politeness we just can use German politeness grammar which English just doesn’t have. We even have special words that makes things more polite or humble, just like in Japanese. And German and Japanese have a similar powerful compound word system (that’s where those stupid ideas with “German/Japanese has a word for everything” come from - these are all just compound words and nothing special).

The only exception I found where English is more similar to Japanese and can be translated more elegantly is the present progressive because German just doesn’t have that. That’s why we always struggle with it. E.g. I eat/I’m eating, taberu/tabeteiru, ich esse/ich esse. No difference in German. If we want to emphasize that something is happening right now we have to add words like “gerade” (“just now”). But that’s really the only example I can come up with where I would have to add more words to a German translation to fit the Japanese meaning better.

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#8

For German I don’t think it would make much sense to you. The market is tiny. When it comes to official statistics only 12,000 Germans can speak Japanese (and I’m not sure how many of them are actually people with Japanese parents in Düsseldorf, Germany’s biggest Japanese community).

There are only a few German beginner text books for Japanese. And the most advanced grammar textbook (which is actually pretty good!) only covers N5-N3. I used it for the N3 stuff in Bunpro where I struggled with the English translations. But now when I’m going to N2 I’m completely out of German textbook material.

It’s also quite difficult to find fellow Germans who learned Japanese beyond N4 level. I know quite a few who started learning Japanese but already quit within N5 level.

So there seems to be no real market in Germany, I guess.

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#9

For me it’s less a problem with understanding it but more with “What Japanese translation does Bunpro actually mean?” in the SRS. :slight_smile: I added German translation within the user notes but that doesn’t help with the SRS.

The points where I had trouble understanding the Japanese concept behind it are equally difficult in English and German, I would say. Stuff like tokoro, bakari, iu, koto etc that you can’t literally translate. The Cure Dolly YouTube channel helped me a lot with really getting them.

#10

Yeah, these are some ideas that should help and I’m planning a bit in that direction, thanks!

My problem with all of that is I just don’t have the time and I can’t invest any more time into learning Japanese, it’s too much already, I want to reduce it. At the moment I mainly learn on my commute to work where something like SRS or reading a few paragraphs in LingQ works very well. But anything beyond that doesn’t really work because I can’t do it on my smartphone efficiently.

I’m going to try a few things but maybe I just reached the point where it would be better to just quit learning Japanese. Sunk cost fallacy so to speak. :slight_smile:

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#11

Would this book by any chance be “Grundstudium Japanisch 1/2”?
We used that one for our Japanese studies language courses…

#12

No, it’s “Praktische Grammatik der japanischen Sprache” by Martina Ebi.

The author teaches Japanese at university and you can immediately recognize that in a very good way. E.g. it doesn’t demonize romaji like many others do (romaji doesn’t really cause problems for German learners like it does for English learners). And it marks letters that remain more or less silent (like the u in desu) which I haven’t seen in any other book.

One of the best Japanese grammar resources (including all English ones I have seen). But unfortunately only for N5-N3. I’d love to have a N2-N1 sequel.

#13

Blockquote
I have Japanese students tell me that the lack of cases in English is something that makes it more complex whereas I have native English speaking friends who find cases in German and Japanese to be something that makes them more complex.
Blockquote

So if I am reading this right:
Student A: Lack of English makes things more complex.
Student B: The exclusion of English makes it far more easier.

After reading this I see again why I prefer Minna no Nihongo above genki, which I have too. You english is not my native language and grammar side of things not my strong suit.

There I wish the grammar explanation used less english as that makes is hella complex for me.

#14

I would certainly love an Italian localisation. Or Spanish, in alternative. I am fluent in English but I do agree that it sometimes lacks the complexity needed to fully render the original Japanese meaning. Sometimes Romance languages have more ways of expressing such complexity than English does.

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#15

I’m Swedish, but honestly I prefer that the focus is on improving and adding to the English language content, rather than on adding additional translations.

I’ve seen too many examples (in other areas) where translations are added but then not kept up to date with corrections and additions made on the English language content, resulting in a worse experience for the users of those languages instead of a better one.

@Jake

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#16

Isn’t there an option to add Notes that also show up in the SRS quizzes? If not, there should be.
Other than that, “synonym hell” isn’t a unique issue of non-native speakers. Every language has parts that are more complex and others less, so if those complexities don’t overlap 100% you can’t really translate things directly. German (and French, and Spanish) also has only two gramatically very distinct politeness levels, beyond ます you’d also have to “translate” by just adding more polite extra words. It’s well possible that one translation is easier to get the feel of if you’re more familiar with the language though. (Hence why, User Notes in quizzes would be great)
(Also dito on the focus on English instead of translating everything. Quality over quantity. IF you wanted to translate things I’d focus on languages of countries where people are less likely to already speak English. So, probably not most European countries.)

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#17

You can activate an option that shows you the grammar info below wrong answers and your notes are in there. But the problem usually is that you have to guess what is meant in the first place.

Bunpro does everything it can to help you with that. I really appreciate how much effort the team put into easing this problem, there are features only for that which cost a lot of time. But putting everything through a second foreign language is always a problem. They can’t solve that problem without translating everything.

When it comes to multiple options for the (more or less) same thing Japanese is quite extreme. It’s the sixth language I learn and the others don’t come even close in that regard. If you look up my example with “even” you’ll find 35 entries in a Japanese dictionary. :slight_smile: Sure, not all of them are really valid but let it be 15 - that’s still quite extreme.

German has a lot of politeness levels. Grammar books just talk about addressing people with “Sie” and “du” but there is much more that is usually not being teached and you get it through immersion. E.g. the person at the counter in a hotel will use other phrases than a work colleague will use for the same thing while both are addressing you with “Sie”. Very similar to Japanese actually. If I want I can create the same sentence in ten or more variants that go from casual to ultra polite. And I can also make it more humble by changing parts. That can also be done to a certain degree with English but after my experience it’s much more limited I would say.

Anyway, that’s not my only point. Even if English and German are exactly the same for some grammar points (which they are for something like “doko”) it is still more difficult to go through English first. That is actually my main point, my examples unfortunately were a bit distracting from that.

#18

There will be a point where you will have a lot of synonym ghosts hauting you, I had maybe 450 at the peak.

What I did was to do fewer reviews but focus more.
As Ive mostly studied while commuting, pecking away at a screen whilst wobbling on a commuter train was a pain in the ass. Also, I didnt feel like I was making progress even though I did 40+ reviews. So what I did was to put more effort into translating sentences and read linked resources, because it easier to read, occasionally look up words, and watch youtube on a train. It slowed down my review to 10 reviews a day at times but helped many other aspects of my japanese understanding.

Turn off the english translation and try your own, it might help.

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#19

Thanks! Yeah, I had the plan to analyze all the synonyms more carefully after finishing N3 (which will be in a week, yay). I also will take a long break before I start with N2, I’m starting to hate grammar and need a break after a streak of 300 days now.

May I ask how you did it? My plan was to create a huge spreadsheet with all Bunpro entries, adding translations in my native language and writing down tags I can filter (e.g. #combined_verb_with_te, #combined_verb_with_masu_stem, #koto, #iu, #sogar). I did that in a text file and it helped but it’s getting hard to see the big picture because of the huge amount of entries.

And afterwards I planned picking at least the ones I have always trouble with and searching for clips via youglish.com or via ChatGPT in all my Japanese movies to get a feeling how they are used in reality.

But the amount of time needed for that is very scary.

That’s why I was asking here to get some impressions how others dealt with it. I chose Bunpro in the first place to save time but my planned approach kind of reverses that.

#20

You slightly misread it. I teach English to Japanese students. Those students complain that the lack of grammatical case in the English language makes English “more complex” than Japanese (they don’t say it in these terms because they don’t know what grammatical case is). Equally, I have English speaking friends who are learning Japanese or German who find grammatical case makes those languages “more complex”. That is what I meant.

I brought it up because cases are something that are often brought up as “making German more complex/difficult” (case marking particles, in the instance of Japanese) but honestly it is so subjective. I think I could personally teach Japanese cases more easily than I could teach English word order and I teach English word order for a living. I think it is more difficult than Japanese cases marking personally but others feel the opposite so it just seems entirely subjective.

(Sorry for the tangent on this thread)