Pitch Accent - Reasons to Start Learning

Japanese
#207

I think it may be easier to have new thread to speak about dialects. It should save us some confusion.

@ljoekelsoey had good reason to assume I am making point directly about dialects since debate drifted there, when I was making point more about pitch and it’s wast irregularities (even in “standard” Japanese i think).

When it was natural for me to assume he is speaking about pitch, not dialect, and therefore not notice I misunderstand what he tries to say.

@solaero Thank you for pointing it out. :hugs:

#208

Kagoshima especially is well known as the accent that sounds Korean haha

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#209

Harry Potter skit in a type of Aomori dialect :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

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#210

The line when the terminator wants clothes from a particular store and the thug responds “なんしゃべちゃんずお前ユニクロしかねーや” reminded me of someone from Tokyo I saw be stunned by the fact that there was no starbucks in rural Aomori.

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#211

This 大仏 lad has some fantastic videos, the subtitles are vital for me though haha. Can’t be dealing with that thic northerner lingo

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#212

Oh god that しまむら line hit deep hahah. #inakalife

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#213

Such a cliffhanger, I wonder if the Terminator can find his Shimamura panties. Skynet must have programmed him for a lower budget without compromise :joy:

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#214

He does eventualy get his shimamura and then shoots a gun store owner for thinking it’s uniqlo.

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#215

Well shimamura does guarantee rock bottom prices without compromising on quality.

Your comfort 第一

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#216

Here is an interesting dissertation about the perception of pitch accent by non native Japanese speakers and a procedure to train. It details also a short training procedure (6 sessions of 30 minutes in one month), that seems to produce real skill improvements in perception and production. There is probably something to do with this (Anki deck?), at least for improving perception (checking correct production would require more work and sophisticated tools, if no Japanese guy is available). https://kuscholarworks.ku.edu/bitstream/handle/1808/8022/HiranoCook_ku_0099D_11708_DATA_1.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

During my reviews on Wanikani I sometimes try to guess the pitch accent then check on Takoboto or Yomichan and, guess what ?, it is not as difficult as I thought. And it is quite fun, so finally I think that it is something that could indeed be recommended even to beginners. I try this sometimes on BunPro too but it is much harder to perceive pitch accent of words inside a sentence (so maybe this is for a next level).

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#217

One question just to be sure: you have read it, and you found out it having useful information, am I right?

I consider reading it, but I need any indicator if it is practically useful to somebody who have read it. 140 pages of technical English it is at very minimum 3h+ read if there is not too much of new knowledge to think about, and that is probably not the case…

Do you recommend it as a reading to somebody who finds pitch hard? I can noticed there is a pitch, and it ends there. Which one? no clue…

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#218

I have read the summary then jumped to the parts that I am interested in, that is the training procedure (mainly chapter 4). Although part of the procedure requires feedback (mainly when training on production), it is still useful to self train. Some part of the training concerns explanation of pitch accent, which we have done in this discussion so this can be skipped but there is still interesting facts and suggestions about improving perception. To sum it up, it is useful to understand pitch accent and how to train but depending on your goal it is not necessary to read everything (and it is not too technical except for some statistical analysis which is not necessary to understand the main ideas). And the appendix contains interesting resources such as the slides used in the training, examples of quizzes, … So it is a good start to devise your own training method.

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#219

Thank you. It looks like something worth a time, when there is some for it.

Maybe it will help me to get first “click” on this pitch stuff :hugs:

#220

Btw: anybody else is interested in content of that paper but have no time to read it? I will be doing some notes anyway, so I can try to present some most interesting part in shorter way to you.

Obviously I am biased so I will find some kinds of information more interesting than others, but I consider being truthful as a virtue so I will try to keep that bias in check to best of my might.

It will likely take over 2 weeks as a side project. Making more readable note will not take much of extra time if any.

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#221

So I’m reading “Scripting Japan - orthography, variation, and the creation of meaning in written Japanese” by Wesley C. Robertson (phenomenal book btw, read it if you can).

Certain Japanese authors (not all) would mark “non-native prosody” or to convery “a たどたどしい" (awkward, halting, or stumbling) image” with katakana. Many more would just just use katakana to illustrate bad Japanese in general.

It was quite a controversy in Japan when a morning show used katakana to mark Miss Naomi Osaka’s speech instead of standard Japanese because of many… implications.

It’s written like this:

ウレシイトキンチョウシテタジャナイ

Instead of this:

うれしいと緊張してたじゃない

There’s also manga with a foreigner struggling with Japanese in Japan and her speech evolved from ワタシ to わたし or 私 when her Japanese improved.

Pitch accent alone wouldn’t graduate you to become わたし/私, or according some native Japanese, nothing ever would. But without it, you are sure to stay at a ワタシ level.

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Transitive - Intransitive Verbs - Grammar Discussion
#222

I think Japan have very Polish definition of nationality: you can’t become Polish. Since you nationality is culture you grow up in, and your heritage. We will welcome you and treat even as if you would be one of us, but you will keep on missing simple references so…

I heard before that gaijin will never become Japanese person since it is impossible to learn on deep emotional and philosophical level what does it mean to “lose face” for example.

So it looks like much deeper issue than just Japanese/accent.

How much understanding of Japanese I need to maximise the utility of reading this book? Looks interesting… On Gods sake: too many thing looks interesting…

#223

That makes a lot of sense! I figured that’s why I saw this sentence in my immersion (from Saiki):

私ハ ココノ館長ノ マイケル･スコフィールドダ

If you listen to the audio, I think it’ll make sense why they used katakana xD:
https://voca.ro/1mfsksPdojnm

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#224

Oh pretty accessible, it’s in English anyway. Some parts are written in blowhard aCadEmIc speech but in general, it’s pretty understandable.

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#225

I don’t mind academic language but this is putting me to sleep:

“Even if one cannot afford travel to a foreign country, technological advances like voice-over internet protocol software”

They mean: “(e.g., Skype)”

xD

Are they paid per word or something?

#226

Btw: thanks for share this kind of stuff. :hugs:

1 Like