Something I don't understand about Bunpro

[Asher]

Theres one thing I dont understand about Bunpro that i’d really love some feedback on. This isn’t a criticism so much as it is just plain confusion on my part.

Why did you guys choose to go with ‘fill in the blank’ instead of say ‘pick from a choice of 4 or 5 possible mcqs’ I say this mainly because I use bunpro specifically to be able to read, and I often find that I am just wasting so much time figuring out contexts of things just to hopefully guess the right grammar point. Wouldn’t it work better to see the grammar point and constantly be asked ‘what does this mean’, rather than ‘fill in the blank… To which there is quite often no obvious answer’.

We are never going to see empty spaces in books, so why are we being trained to fill in the blanks when we would probably remember things better long term just by repearedly seeing something and being forced to ‘match’ it to what it means… Maybe this is just my style of learning.

We all know that quantity is king when it comes to language learning. So my question is, why was a input based system chosen when it takes 10 times as long to answer questions than a mcq based system would be? Why spend 5 minutes working out the missing word when there are literally many possibilities, when I could spend 10 seconds reinforcing the link between Japanese(A) meaning English(B).

Before anyone answers this, think about は、が、か？、てform. And grammar points like that, and answer honestly, did you learn it because you read about how it works over and over? Or did you just see it so often that it became natural. Are we trying to learn to recognise what a term means by seeing it over and over, or trying to become professional translators.

[Kai]

Manual input helps train production of the grammar points. Even if you don’t have any desire/need for writing/speaking Japanese, recollection is still easier when it’s something you can freely produce.

If the questions were multiple choice, we’d be training recognition instead. There won’t be any blanks when reading, but that’s pretty much what we have to work with if we’re developing a Japanese sentence of our own and need to express something that’s especially particular.

No native material will ever just have options lying around to choose from though, unless maybe you’re taking the JLPT I guess

 

Re: は・が, I’d highly recommend Jay Rubin’s book called Making Sense of Japanese. This guy professionally translates Haruki Murakami’s famous works, so he definitely knows what he’s talking about

[Asher]

Isn’t that kind of like teaching a 5 year old how to use ‘until’ by showing them a ton of sentences without the word ‘until’ in it and just hoping they recognise where it should fit. Doesn’t actually seeing the word in context over and over more effectively teach both recognition and production?

[seanblue]

Before anyone answers this, think about は、が、か？、てform. And grammar points like that, and answer honestly, did you learn it because you read about how it works over and over? Or did you just see it so often that it became natural.

A mixture of the two. I often get exposed to a grammar point via textbook / online grammar resource, but I solidify it by reading.

Doesn’t actually seeing the word in context over and over more effectively teach both recognition and production?

I find this question strange to be honest. If seeing something over and over again works best for you (and there’s obviously nothing wrong with that), why are you even using Bunpro at all? Why aren’t you just reading a ton of native material?

Bunpro (and any automated learning resource like it) needs a way to automatically mark if you are right or wrong. The problem with multiple choice is that it’s often easy to know the correct answer by process of elimination, even though you wouldn’t actually understand it when reading native material. I’ve had my share of issues with Bunpro’s fill in the blank approach, but I’m just not sure what you’re expecting instead.

[s1212z]

Jay Rubin’s book called Making Sense of Japanese

Well put, production is definitely the more difficult path instead of recognition but it’s worth it. I believe if one can recollect, the transition to speaking is much easier (and dare I say improves listening as well).

Entirely forgot about this book. I only skimmed it but remember reading the chapter on は vs が and thought it was interesting.

[Anthropos888]

I think one more reason why Bunpro didn’t choose multiple choice is this one, copied from the Anki manual:

Multiple choice questions are a poor review tool for a number of reasons. The reason they are commonly used in an academic setting is because they are easy to mark, and they allow the person studying to demonstrate their ability to recognize the correct answer even if they can’t produce it themselves.

Furthermore, good multiple choice questions have well chosen “distractors” - answers that are similar to the correct answer. A computer can look for similarly spelt words, but it is not capable of choosing good distractors for more complicated topics.

If Bunpro needs to list good similar but wrong answers for all the thousands of review sentences, this would take an enormous amount of time. They could automate it with a script, but then the correct answer would probably be too easy to pick because the “distractors” are not well chosen.

[MissDagger]

Before anyone answers this, think about は、が、か？、てform.

I can only produce and use てform, thanks to BP. I had studied it before in a Japanese class for a bit, and I remember how confused I was. How I couldn’t keep it straight. So confused I probably couldn’t even recognize it because all the different ways it changed the ending of words and sometimes it was even で!

But then BP asked me to write てform again and again, both in its own lesson but also in others because many grammar points use it or an example sentence use it. And now I can produce てform fairly easily.

Just reading it again and again would not have helped me become confident of being able to produce it. Producing anything is a different skill from recognition, it is usually called recall. Anyone who have studied a language a lot, but never speak it, will notice that their recall while speaking is very low (even if they write a lot which is also recall). So multiple choice and fill in the blank are not equal, doesn’t even teach the same thing. And there is a reason that multiple choice tests are considered among the easiest tests to take.

[Asher]

I am using both Bunpro and native material, like I said, not bagging Bunpro at all, just wondering why input seems to be such a popular method these days. For me personally, I find that my memory works better when I am looking at something for an extended period of time, andby the time i figure out what the answer should be for a fill in the blank type question, I only actually see the word in its context for 2 seconds before it skips to the next question.

[Asher]

Of course a mix of reading and being taught are important. You cant learn anything just by beingtold how it works and you also cant learn anything just by seeing it over and and absorbing the meaning, you need a mixture of both.

As for mcq being a poor method of testing knowledge, that’s purely because university exams dont give instant feedback, you have to wait for results. One of the reasons bunpro works so well is because you get instant feedback if you are right or wrong. Something you would also get in an mcq in an online format.

[seanblue]

FYI, if you disable the bunny mode setting you can stay on the question after answering for as long as you want.

[Asher]

I am looking forward to having a read of that book! Seems like a great resource!

[misterkite]

I think that Bunpro(and WK) + reading native material is the easiest possible way to learn Japanese(at least for me).

I don’t think one would have any problem when answering if one reads native material.
I think that Bunpro makes it easier to have that ‘click’ moment when you’re reading or when you’re answering(assuming you’re reading regularly).

I mean, excluding my native language, I can read well in 4 languages, and Japanese has been the easiest to learn.

[Asher]

Really? Wow thats really interesting. I am fluent in a few other languages as well but japanese has been the hardest for me by far. Is your native language similar to japanese in grammar or vocabulary?

But yes I fully agree, a mix of content is totally necessary

[Anthropos888]

I mean, excluding my native language, I can read well in 4 languages, and Japanese has been the easiest to learn.

For me it’s the exact opposite. I learned a few roman languages quite fast and well but Japanese is by far the most difficult language for me. Even though I can read and write around 2000 kanji, native material just blows my brain off within a few minutes.
What material are you reading? How often do you read?

[misterkite]

My native language is Brazillian Portuguese, so it didn’t help me at all.

But there’s the fact that I watched a lot of anime since when I was a kid.

[misterkite]

I read a lot of different things, and I read everyday.

I mainly read manga and novels, but I also read about random things.

(Unfortunatelly) right now, I am not in college nor have a job, so I basically spend the day studying, watching things, and listening to music.

[seanblue]

Even though I can read and write around 2000 kanji, native material just blows my brain off within a few minutes.

You gotta push through until it clicks. If you know 2000 kanji and (presumably) have a decent knowledge of vocab and grammar, you should be able to make it though a book.

Have you considered joining one of the book clubs on the WaniKani forums? It’s a good way to motivate yourself to read, and it also gives you a place to ask for help if you get stuck.

[Anthropos888]

Have you considered joining one of the book clubs on the WaniKani forums?

Will check that out, thanks. Quick question, sorry for using this thread here, but: I love to read European classics like Dickens, Dumas, Burnett etc. Did you ever read the Japanese translations of those classics? Or would you recommend to read Japanese literature rather than translated European/American literature?

[Asher]

There is an awesome company called 青い鳥文庫 (あおいとりぶんか) that makes all english classics in full japanese with furigana. Also a bunch of japanese books with full furigana. The company is kinda aimed at westerners learning japanese. Amazzzzing selection of books and always growing. You can buy them as ebooks too. Definitely recommend checking it out.

As for the thread, don’t worry. It was more about seeing how most people learn most efficiently. Discussing this type of stuff is basically the same

[seanblue]

I personally would recommend reading Japanese literature instead of translations. I’ve never read translations, but I just don’t see the point. If I wanted to, I’d just read those classics in English and then still read native Japanese material in Japanese.