The Bunpro App: A Question of Resource Allocation and Focus

[rdennison7]

Firstly, hats off to the Bunpro team. The platform has improved leaps and bounds since I joined in 2019, and I couldn’t be happier about how the team has improved the site and how much easier they have made grammar, especially with the in-house explanations per grammar point.

I’m sharing these thoughts with the hope of opening a constructive dialogue about the future direction of Bunpro.

That said, I recently gave the Bunpro app a test drive on my iPhone out of curiosity and I’ve got to say, it felt remarkably similar to the mobile site. It’s got me wondering, is the app really necessary?

I predominantly use Bunpro on my desktop, so mobile isn’t a huge deal for me. But the app updates on the forum piqued my interest. After using it, I noticed the similarities between the app and the mobile site are >=90% the same experience. The app does have the advantage in terms of functionality but nothing I don’t think the mobile version of the site can’t accomplish either.

Honestly, I’m questioning if the resources spent on the app wouldn’t be better used beefing up the existing mobile site. The mobile site has already seen some great improvements over the years since I started using the service, and admittedly can still use some improvement.

I’m not bringing this up to criticize for the sake of it. I am still a firm believer that the inclusion of vocab was a questionable allocation of resources. Could the resources spent on vocabulary have been more effectively used on refining grammar points? Is the team perhaps focusing a bit too much on minor points of feedback, such as the inclusion of ‘days studied’ or a toggle for the streak, instead of concentrating on more impactful features?

The overall impression it gives to me is a lack of clarity on what the service’s focus is supposed to be, which leaves me somewhat puzzled by some of these decisions.

In summary, Bunpro has made incredible strides, but I’m concerned about the diversion of focus. My hope is that the team continues to concentrate on refining the core service, instead of diluting it with peripheral features.

I don’t want this post to be a flame war or anything like that, and I assume that this view might be a bit contentious or unpopular. But I just want to vent some of my concerns as this service has a tremendous amount of potential that no other service currently offers, and it would hurt my soul to see it be squandered.

[ericfournier2]

As a Bunpro android app user, I would like to state that I find the native app to be a large improvement over the mobile website, both from a UI perspective (the app keeps the sentences and answer fields centered and visible, which the mobile website does not) and because of the offline mode.

I think the time the dev team put on it is paying off, and it keeps me using Bunpro much more than I would otherwise.

[IcyIceBear]

I use the app pretty much exclusively…the mobile site works great but I never use it. Because the app is right there without the other distractions of the Internet. Plus, I have janky wifi way too often, and the app is just snappier. It feels like it loads everything on load up and I have zero issues with connection. Native apps are just better than mobile sites 98% of the time. Just because it isn’t a feature you use doesn’t mean it isn’t better for someone else’s use case

For the vocab, I haven’t used it yet but I can certainly see how it would be useful for learners to have it all in one place. Especially if they’re just starting out.

Out of curiosity, what do you think they could do to beef up the grammar more than they already have? I’m just nearing n2 content so maybe I’m missing something but what they have is more than satisfactory.

Because to me, I think it’s focus is pretty clear -bunpro is a srs service catered to Japanese learners. Yes, it started as only grammar and yes that’s still it’s strong point but it’s goal is the same. To help learners of the Japanese language, and to that end I don’t think having vocab is a misplaced use of time nor is it diluting it. And the “minor” feedback might be little on its own, but all of them together does carry impact and improves bunpro overall. Sometimes its the little things that go a long way

So personally, I’m not concerned for Bunpro in the least. The content is already great, the community is helpful and supportive, and the staff is responsive and attentive. Bunpro is really cared for by is users and it’s staff, you can tell. If one day that were to no longer be the case, then I would be concerned for it’s future

[Gacee]

Just to throw in my two cents: I think you make some very valid points, however, I would literally never do reviews on my phone if there wasn’t an app.

There’s just something about the aspect of navigating to the website vs. opening an app. It’s definitely illogical, but it’s also just true for me.

Idk how many users are like me, but if there are lots and bunpro wants to bolster mobile traffic, I think the app is a good idea.

(Also, I migrated from my other vocab SRS app to bun pro’s and while it could still use some work I personally appreciate that they’ve added it - I think having vocab and grammar included in one product is a nice feature)

[Wippo]

Ones garbage is anothers treasure.
I love that I can learn vocabulary here and think the inclusion is a logical step, as knowing more vocab will help you understand the example sentences of the grammar SRS.
I feel lots of users love the small stuff like the study streak toggle as well, so I believe many appreciate the mobile app. (As seen in the answers so far, I haven’t tried it yet)
I do get where you come from, as you want the best possible grammar tool, so extra features that are not strictly neccessary might impact the development of bunpro in that regard.
Though I believe that bunpros lack of focus will allow it to become something bigger, making it easier to sell and thus allowing for more funding in the long run, which will also help the improvement of core features.

[walter]

@rdennison7

since I started using the service, and admittedly can still use some improvement.

I’m not bringing this up to criticize for the sake of it. I am still a firm believer that the inclusion of vocab was a questionable allocation of resources. Could the resources spent on vocabulary have been more effectively used on refining grammar points? Is the team perhaps focusing a bit too much on minor points of feedback, such as the inclusion of ‘days studied’ or a toggle for the streak, instead of concentrating on more impactful features?

The

I disagree strongly about two of the points you raised. I love the app, it is far nicer to do reviews on a native interface than on the webpage. The lack of an official app is one of my main gripes with WaniKani. Vocab is also brilliant. In fact lately I spend more time reviewing vocab than grammar, I really like the way BunPro implemented it and I hope to see improvements in that direction.

[fjdksleiwoqp]

I use the mobile site daily, happily, with zero issues, and asked Bunpro staff several months ago why I should use the app.

The sole benefit, afaict, is better offline support.

[rdennison7]

I truly appreciate the varied perspectives shared in response to my previous post.

While I concede that offline support for mobile is a valuable feature, I’d like to delve a bit deeper into the topic of UI and formatting. Regarding this, might it be possible to implement these app-specific enhancements on an optimized mobile site?

I absolutely see the merits of an app. However, my primary concern lies in the potential stretching of resources, especially given the size of the Bunpro team as it appears. One might wonder if managing multiple platforms (desktop, mobile, iOS, and Android) might slow the rate of content development and improvements.

In the realm of improvement, there’s an abundance of Japanese grammar yet to be fully explored by Bunpro. Take the Kansai deck, for example. Its introduction was an intriguing experiment, and there’s potential in delving deeper into the nuances of various dialects and their grammatical intricacies. Additionally, a shift from a JLPT-centric approach to one that caters to learners aiming for immediate immersion in Japanese content would be immensely valuable. Focusing on slang, colloquial expressions, and everyday Japanese would immense insight into the language’s living, breathing dynamics. There’s an expansive world within Japanese grammar that has yet to be explored.

From a pragmatic standpoint, focusing on a robust desktop and mobile experience might serve the majority of Bunpro’s user needs for now.

Looking to the future, there are undoubtedly scenarios where a dedicated app might shine. For instance, if Bunpro ever chose to introduce features leveraging phone hardware, like camera-based vocabulary capture, or if they decided to venture into areas currently dominated by tools like Anki(such as being a mobile version of Yomichan). In such cases, a mobile app would indeed be invaluable.

Anyway, to wrap things up, while Bunpro’s endeavors to address community feedback and incorporate elements of platforms like Anki(Vocab SRS) or Satori Reader(Graded Readers) are commendable, it’s crucial to weigh the cost. Dedicating resources to mirror features that are already excellently executed elsewhere could divert attention from expanding on Bunpro’s unique offerings. The essence of Bunpro’s success has always been its approach to grammar. Rather than reshaping aspects that are already well-realized in other tools, it would be more beneficial to channel those energies into working on what made Bunpro stand out in the first place.

[Asher]

On the topic of resource allocation, one of the major things that needs to be considered is people power, as people are the ‘resources’ you’re talking about in a topic such as this. For us, there is no point putting 3 people on content creation when only one of those people is a content expert. There is also inversely no point putting 3 people on app development when only one of them has any knowledge of how to develop an app.

This could be construed as an issue of hiring, but the reverse situation is that we hire 3 content experts, and are then stuck in the situation of having a revolving loop of 3 people arguing that maybe want to teach things in 3 different ways and it actually stagnates the content development rather than speeding it up. Compounding on that, not one of them have the ability to create an app or website, so that possibility gets removed from the table completely.

I think you’ll find that with most companies that only have a handful of people, those people will each have one very specific job, and adding extra people to those teams may not actually increase the speed of anything getting done, as there is a soft cap on the speed that any one particular thing can be produced due to it needing to go through various quality control steps.

The above scenario I believe is something that applies to any similar business, and not something that should be taken as me defending Bunpro. It’s more just a ‘this is what it’s like behind the curtain, not everyone is qualified to do everything’ statement.

As for the app, as has already been mentioned, one of the huge benefits is offline support, and similar things that will be possible in the near future, such as local storage of audio etc for use whenever the student wants, regardless of their connection status.

As for vocab, this is something that has been implemented to go hand in hand with grammar, not be distinct from it. A prime example of this is the way that our example sentences have been written. If you check some of them out, you’ll notice that N5 words use a lot of N5 grammar, N4 words use a lot of N4 grammar, N3 words use a lot of N3 grammar, and so on and so forth. I’d go so far as to say that Bunpro’s vocab is the only vocab service in the world that is designed to actually help you get better at reading at the same time and at the same pace as you’re learning the grammar. Open the grammar search, jump to an N level, look at a handful of points, then look at a handful of the sentences from the vocab in that same level. Sure it may not be perfect yet, but once we get the logistics of grammar searching sorted out within every sentence on the site, you’re going to have hundreds and in some case thousands of examples of every single grammar point on the site, and I personally think that’s pretty exciting!

There is a long term goal, and while the team may be chugging away towards it on different tracks, we’re all going to be meeting at the same station at the end. This you can be assured of .

P.S - This is not an attack on your post at all, I actually super appreciate you posting it, as communication about our goals and how users interpret those goals is really important to us! Rather than the actual allocation of our resources, is there any way that you think we can be more communicative about the way that we implement each new feature and why?

[rdennison7]

Hey, @Asher . Thanks for taking the time to provide such a comprehensive response. Rest assured, I don’t interpret it as hostile or combative.

From my personal experience in a startup that grew into a large corporation, I’ve learned that expanding the team doesn’t always lead to increased efficiency. In fact, this mirrors the Pareto Principle – where 80% of the impactful output is often derived from just 20% of the team. So I am of the idea that keeping things lean is the best way to stay agile.

However, the strategy to maintain four distinct versions of Bunpro raises a red flag to me. It’s a challenge to ensure a consistent, high-quality experience across these platforms, especially when each update or feature requires adaptation for different systems. It seems in best interest to keep Bunpro on desktop and mobile for the sake of efficiency. I am not convinced that the inclusion of an offline mode nor local storage of audio are features that the majority of users would benefit from enough to warrant the effort needed.

Regarding Bunpro’s venture into vocabulary, while the integrated approach to combining vocabulary with grammar is very thoughtful, the vocabulary SRS space is already quite saturated. Platforms like WaniKani, which is paid, have deeply entrenched themselves in this domain. And on the other side of the spectrum, there’s Anki – a highly customizable, and most importantly, free platform that many learners swear by(myself included). For Bunpro to make a notable impact in this realm, it needs to offer a substantially enhanced experience, not just a slightly different one.

The allure of Bunpro to me has been its distinct focus on Japanese grammar. By venturing into areas that are already densely populated, like vocabulary SRS, there’s a risk of diverting resources and attention from its core competency. Enhancing its grammar-centric approach would fortify Bunpro’s position as the gold standard for Japanese grammar learners. To insert a dumb pun in this post to easily drive my point: to put the Bunpo into Bunpro.

What would you guys do if a competitor decided to have Bunpro in their sights and go after directly for what you’re doing in the grammar space? It gives the impression to me that this will result in the lack of ability to react fast enough to put out a response, if the emphasis is on peripheral features and needing to maintain up to four platforms.

To sum up, while diversification can be alluring, it’s crucial to ensure what makes Bunpro unique aren’t overshadowed. As Bunpro continues to add features, I sincerely hope it continues to lean into grammar, distinguishing itself in the vast language learning landscape. I humbly disagree with many of these additions even with the explanation, as I feel that it still detracts from the core experience of what make this service unique. Bunpro’s strength lies in its differentiation from competitors, not in mirroring them.

[Asher]

@rdennison7

I am not convinced that the inclusion of an offline mode nor local storage of audio are features that the majority of users would benefit from enough to warrant the effort needed.

With these types of things, it’s quite minimal effort. Once the feature is built and exists, and future updates to it would just be the addition of content packs.

@rdennison7

the vocabulary SRS space is already quite saturated

You’re exactly right. We wouldn’t have even put our foot in this area unless we thought that what we offer/are planning on offering as a complete product wouldn’t blow everything else out of the water.

@rdennison7

there’s a risk of diverting resources and attention from its core competency.

Using myself as an example, from when I started right up until this day, I work almost 100% of my day within the realm of content creation, primarily grammar. There are no days that I spend time on the app or the UI/UX. Our resources have not been diverted. Yes there are times that I work on vocab and help out other content team staff with their various tasks, but these are all things that build on grammar itself, not detract from it.

I would perhaps even say that doing some of these other tasks sharpen my, and the other content team members’ perspective in situations where it could become a bit dull if we just do the same thing all day every day. I guess you could liken it to a baseball/basketball player being far more effective when they know how to play/understand all positions on the field/court.

@rdennison7

To sum up, while diversification can be alluring, it’s crucial to ensure what makes Bunpro unique aren’t overshadowed. As Bunpro continues to add features, I sincerely hope it continues to lean into grammar

Grammar will always be our key focus, with anything else that gets added in the future being something that works into that in some way, the first step of this is the grammar integration into vocab. It gives the user many extra examples of how to use grammar while teaching new words at the same time.

@rdennison7

Bunpro’s strength lies in its differentiation from competitors, not in mirroring them.

One of the strengths of any business is in its uniqueness. I am not sure if this is a quality that is unique to Bunpro. As someone that has been part of the team for quite a long time now, I would say that our biggest strength by far is our desire to push the envelope and get new content out the door. We release new content faster now than any time in the past, and while not all of this is grammar, we’re still updating grammar features on a daily basis. So without naming any names, what we have that I have noticed in the past that a lot of similar companies don’t is lack of complacency. We never intend on coasting by on our past successes, but finding out ways to turn those successes into new opportunities. Yes, we may drop the ball here and there, but you can bet we’ll all be at our desks again the next day trying to figure out how to do things better.

[Asher]

@rdennison7

What would you guys do if a competitor decided to have Bunpro in their sights and go after directly for what you’re doing in the grammar space?

This one deserved a response on its own. The simple solution to this is not to get ready, but to be ready. We never want the situation that we need to ‘respond’ to what another company has created, which is why we work hard on developing new content and improving all aspects of our service every day.

Rather than us responding to another company having us in their sights, it’s our goal to create a service that anyone looking at our product would think that creating something equally as good is too difficult.

[rdennison7]

Thank you, @Asher, for your detailed response. Your insights are, as always, appreciated, and I hope you understand that my probing comes from a place of genuine affection for Bunpro and its mission as I frankly love you guys and what you are doing.

@Asher

With these types of things, it’s quite minimal effort. Once the feature is built and exists, and future updates to it would just be the addition of content packs

While I understand the potential benefits of dedicated apps, the current iOS experience, at least, appears largely similar to the web version. If the experience on both platforms is nearly identical, what is the core advantage of developing and maintaining these standalone apps?

@Asher

You’re exactly right. We wouldn’t have even put our foot in this area unless we thought that what we offer/are planning on offering as a complete product wouldn’t blow everything else out of the water.

Your confidence is commendable. My vision for Bunpro is for it to be the definitive app, guiding beginners to proficiency in Japanese. While introducing new features can be exciting, I wonder if this is the right time to branch out, or if the focus should remain squarely on enhancing the depth of grammar content.

@Asher

Using myself as an example, from when I started right up until this day, I work almost 100% of my day within the realm of content creation, primarily grammar. There are no days that I spend time on the app or the UI/UX. Our resources have not been diverted. Yes there are times that I work on vocab and help out other content team staff with their various tasks, but these are all things that build on grammar itself, not detract from it.

While individual contributions are crucial, my concerns stem more from an overarching strategic perspective. Instead of distributing efforts across grammar and vocabulary, could the team benefit from a more singular, deepened focus on grammar?

The talk of a conjugation tool has been on the horizon for a while now(two years?), yet we see a pivot to vocabulary. This gives an impression of perhaps misplaced priorities.

@Asher

Grammar will always be our key focus, with anything else that gets added in the future being something that works into that in some way, the first step of this is the grammar integration into vocab. It gives the user many extra examples of how to use grammar while teaching new words at the same time.

The integration of grammar into vocabulary is a interesting concept, and I’m eager to see its execution. Sharing a detailed roadmap might provide users with a clearer picture of Bunpro’s long-term vision and how these new features fit into it.

@Asher

We release new content faster now than any time in the past, and while not all of this is grammar, we’re still updating grammar features on a daily basis. So without naming any names, what we have that I have noticed in the past that a lot of similar companies don’t is lack of complacency.

This is something I agree with a million percent. Platforms like Wanikani risk stagnation if they don’t evolve. Perhaps Bunpro’s goal is to simply replace that service, then it makes sense the reasoning for these inclusions of vocab. I don’t have an idea of what Bunpro’s master plan is, but if I had to take a stab at it, they were trying to be the “everything app” in Japanese learning. If that is the case, then my issue is merely on the point of optimal deployment.

In all, I am appreciative that I can have this discourse with you head on and get more or less direct answers. It’s incredibly important to criticize what you deeply care about. Ideally feedback should be about listening and coming up with your own decision on the solution.

[tanukiii]

I think that even if the mobile site and the app had 100% identical features and user experiences, to the point that there was absolutely no difference in using them, it would still be worth having and investing resources into an app.

It seems like you’ve missed the point that having an app allows Bunpro to capture an audience that would otherwise not use Bunpro at all. I’m sure a lot of people discover Bunpro through app stores while looking for Japanese resources. A lot of people would also not consider using Bunpro if they didn’t have an app, without understanding that the website experience was identical. Even with the experience being identical, many people would dislike having it as part of the browser and not the app (just as others would dislike having to install an app and not be able to use their mobile browser.) By diversifying the options people have to engage with the platform, they open themselves up to a larger user base.

Obviously, I don’t have any actual insight into their business so I can’t say with certainty, but with that consideration in mind, Bunpro probably gains significantly more resources than they use in developing the app by having the app. If you see it like that, it’s quite silly to think that it’s a waste of resources to develop the app.

Using me as an example, even if it doesn’t make sense in retrospect, I probably wouldn’t have even properly considered using Bunpro at first if it didn’t have an app, even though I mainly use desktop now. The app is what got me using the service in the first place, and I just upgraded to lifetime subscription after about half a year on monthly. I’m sure many others have a similar experience to me.

[rdennison7]

While I acknowledge the convenience apps can offer for certain users, I believe the landscape of digital consumption has evolved significantly. The app-centric era of the late 2000s and early 2010s has shifted. Today, the presence of an app is not an automatic user magnet.

The primary value of an app lies in its unique utilization of a device’s capabilities – think about platforms like Facebook, Instagram, or X that harness the device’s camera, location, and other hardware integrations. In its current iteration, Bunpro doesn’t capitalize on such functionalities, making me question the necessity of an app.

Drawing from personal experience, the company I work for, despite being a billion-dollar corporation, has been grappling with driving users to their apps. Despite financial incentives, adoption remains mediocre at best. This suggests that user preferences are complex and not easily swayed by the mere presence of an app.

I’ve been using Bunpro’s mobile site with few issues, but with much room for improvement. And given its current state, I remain skeptical about the tangible benefits the dedicated app offers over a well-optimized web experience. If the platform’s vision is to morph into an all-encompassing Japanese learning app, then maybe. But, as of now, it feels like an added layer of complexity for marginal gain.

[Donutmancer]

@Asher

Rather than the actual allocation of our resources, is there any way that you think we can be more communicative about the way that we impliment each new feature and why?

I would actually like to see a bit more communication about the app. While every other new feature is presented and discussed here on the forum, I could not find anything about the current state and plans for the mobile app. There are some threads, but they mainly talk about ui stuff and not about which features are supported or planned, as far as I can tell. The last time I tried it it was still missing a key feature from the main website (furigana support), but was much better from a UI standpoint. I tried using the feedback function to ask about it but that also got ignored. To me it feels like the app is a black hole with little information available, especially compared to the otherwise excellent communication about other features.

[mrnoone]

Hey @Donutmancer
We are usually responding to mobile feedback within 24 hours, but I have been on vacations for last few days, I am really sorry for the delay.

The plans for development are exactly the same as for the app, also we present the updates here:

Mobile App - UI refactor

The update has been released for both android and iOS (version 4.1.0 build 117) Details: added Review Queue Order menu it is now possible to sort your Review queue in a few different ways or limit reviews number added Reading Review-Type to both grammar and vocab reviews reading review type shows the full sentence (with answer included) and then one self-grades oneself based upon whether or not they got it correct added Hide Streak it is now possible to hide streak counter …

Cheers

[CursedKitsune]

You say this but one question that is very frequently asked by beginners is “what apps do you recommend?”. Duolingo is probably to thank for that. I have also seen people say they won’t use Wanikani because it doesn’t have an app/only use Wanikani because of those fan apps. Maybe it isn’t the majority of the userbase but it probably is enough of the market that it is worth pursuing the app from a business standpoint. Bunpro is a business and the guys running it (hopefully…) understand the market and financials far better than us. I could make a similar thread to this one about vocab as I don’t use it and it clearly takes a lot of time to work on but it also is used by many people and it makes business sense (probably) to develop it so here we are.

As far as the app goes, the main thing I use it for is looking up grammar quickly when I’m on the go - I don’t do any reviews on mobile at all, browser or app.

[wct]

To the OP @rdennison7:
I gave your post a ‘like’ , even though I don’t feel the same level of concern you do about, for example, the addition of Vocab(*).

Just wanted to show support for you making the post, despite the possibility it might be unpopular, etc. As users/customers, we really do need to be able to give our honest opinions/feedback to the team/service, IMHO.

As for whether the mobile app vs. the mobile site is ‘wasted’ or duplicated effort, I unfortunately have no opinion, as I don’t have any mobile devices, and only use the desktop/browser version of the app.

Depending on how much automation and/or code-generation they use in their development process, it’s possible that the mobile app and mobile website might share almost all of their human-written source code in common. But again, I have no clue how they handle that…

Anyway, cheers!

---

[ (*) Note: I’m now using Vocab a lot, despite being initially skeptical, and I’m finding it both helpful on its own, but also having ‘synergistic’ benefits for learning grammar (and vice versa, grammar helping with the vocab). ]

[acyanto]

I agree that the app isn’t necessary. At least for me. However, I love the vocabulary decks. I wouldn’t continue to be a paying member if it wasn’t for the vocabulary decks. I hope that they continue working on the N2 deck also a slang deck would be interesting!