The value of literal translations (for beginners). And, suggestions for applications that can provide automated interpretations/explanations

Japanese
#11

I mean, they differ in meaning a little, and that difference would be up to the listener and situation. Literal translation gets in the way of understanding which is probably a better viewpoint of my argument. Since as OP says, the literal translation could seem weird, on top of an entire sentence likely being dropped. Understanding the role that のは serves and the gist of the sentence as a result, is far better than taking the time to manually dissect the entire sentence.

Again, translations tend to have a bit of ambiguity. Because of local slang, or even methods of speak ect. I will provide a useful example in my next sentence for EN->JP

now, I WILL say, if you’re straight up having Difficulties
(My use of slang here is more or less untranslatable literally into Japanese since it wouldn’t make sense, however its relatively common place, at least in America)

Now if you’re having difficulties with a specific piece of grammar and literally translating a few sentences helps, go ahead. I do see use in that, but when studying, I think having a foundation of what it is saying is more important. Then when its time to speak/listen, you’re not translating every word in your head.

Say youre a non-native speaker, you hear “straight up having difficulties”, there is a high chance you can put that aside, and continue. But if you get stuck trying to translate every sentence you hear/read then it will slow you down.

Basically I’m agreeing with that @FubuMiOkaKoro said at the beginning of the thread. We have ideas we are saying, and we are aiming for as close to that idea as possible in the target language.

#12

I see your point. Yes, if you were translating “if you’re straight up having difficulties” normally, you would omit the “straight up”. Translating it literally would sound really weird but it highlights its inclusion. You could explain that “straight up” means “direct” and “to the point” which helps you understand how and why it is used.

So I think the aim of translating piece by piece helps you (or at least me) to understand how each bit works together. Whereas a normal translation will give you something that sounds normal to a native speaker, which could mean you miss the nuance of the original sentence (because there is no natural translation)

This is fairly simple and contrived example, but many English translations would omit “younger” and “older” when referring to siblings because it’s quite unnatural to include that detail right. However, a more literally translation would include this information, highlighting its use.

I think learning with literal translations can help highlight the nuance, and also the reasoning behind why some words are used. I actually thought FubuMiOkaKoro’s direct translation of the Swedish word was quite useful in understanding its use!

Alas it depends on what each person prefers :woman_shrugging:

2 Likes
#13

People are bad at utilizing AI in helpful ways, their expectations far exceed what they would expect even a human teacher to do and in turn they diminish the use case of it. They also ignore the fact it will only improve, mindlessly citing current perceived issues with it. Using AI the way you’re describing is immensely helpful with learning the language. Most words or phrases the AI will be able to give you a better description of its core logic than the average high level learner can, which provides much more value if you have an analytical mind.

Currently people are coping with the premise of AI and the possibilities it could potentially bring about in various ways, one of the common ways is to belittle and diminish its capabilities and pretend it isn’t happening. The human ego is an astonishing thing. I don’t think threads like these do much good as people have already made up their minds one way or another, so they will always seek out evidence that continues their world view. In reality whatever tool helps someone understand in the end is the best tool for them. I would ignore the responses you get on it, they are emotional and trauma dumping, not providing useful info.

5 Likes
#14

Ichi.moe is a litteral sentence parser. Type in a sentence and it pulls the definition from jisho.

Not a beginner, it’s really interesting to be flexible with definitions

I have a English and Japanese example.
Example sentence: 噂を広めたくないから誰にも言うな！
Me of course! 広める 広い+める = spread cause when it’s spread it’s wider

Or ‘you’ll get the hang of the difference between 晴る and 晴らす’
Me: uh, I just remember them all as ‘clear’ as in
“I can see clearly now the rain has gone. Cleared all the obstacles in my way”

And in English class today the Japanese teacher wrote: following year = ファロー→追って行く→後へ続く→翌年

Or I looked up わざとよそよそしくしないでください。in weblio よそよそしく:親しみがない。他人行儀である。
Oh, so it’s “don’t be distant… on purpose”. On purpose… that’s the difference between ‘cruel’ and ‘cold’

#15

I’m not dogmatic or keeping my head in the sand. I specified it in my initial comment (but your comment reads as if you missed it) that I’m only talking about AI in a language learning context. I know that AI is useful for progress in other fields like medicine. So it has it’s uses but not in language learning, which is what this discussion was concerning.

Language requires the sort of nuance and reflection that can only be performed by a human brain. Everyone’s allowed their own opinion, but to disagree with my previous sentence in this paragraph, to me, indicates that one has a very limited view of linguistics.

1 Like
#16

The way you speak is exactly what I was referring to, you make absolute and definitive claims while providing no proof other than “if you disagree you just don’t get it as well as I do” as your logic, hiding it behind altered verbiage. I appreciate you illustrating my point, however this thread is about the user and their feedback on how they best learn so I am not going to go back and forth with you to feed your ego.

4 Likes
#17

I also found her videos super helpful. I think the fact she approaches it from a different perspective than other resources is what is so valuable. I just couldn’t get it with the normal sites but I was able to get through the biggest hiccups through her way of framing thingz. She handled japnese more like a robot/ai or in her words “legos” and that was much easier for me.

2 Likes
#18

That’s fair. “Agree to disagree” is a perfectly valid conclusion to discussions. I’m not claiming or believing to speak only in absolute truths here. These are my personal opinions I’m expressing here, obviously.

1 Like
#19

I feel like making it personal liek that over what they wrote it taking it a bit too far lol it doesnt mean they cant talk to people it aint that serious lmao

1 Like
#20

This is my final comment in this thread (I promise). Just adding a source to back up my stance, since apparently the burden of proof is on me for some reason.
Here’s Vesicularorb’s post complaining about AI being unable to explain は vs が, without giving conflicting explanations.

@Vesicularorb Please take this comment for what I intended. Just a friendly jab to relieve some of the tension in this thread, with me being the instigator of creating that unneeded tension. Sorry.

1 Like
#21

It’s less about the emotional depth and more about fact and clarity. Consulting. I am repeatedly left disappointed when reaching out to “professionals” to help me resolve problems (for example, IT-related), being they talk in circles, tell me things aren’t possible when in fact they are, waste my time and my money, act out of desperation to save face and protect their pride, etc. AI is a better partner than humans will be in most situations, especially if you are smart yourself. Yes, I have to question and correct my AI, but to a lesser extent than I have to with people I’m forced to work with.

Would you rather put your trust in a being with direct access to less information, or a being with direct access to more information? You’d be foolish to go with the former.

1 Like
#22

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

#23

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

1 Like
#24

“directly from data.”
Which comes from where? Oh, right people. People have to create, collect, interpret, and input that somewhere, where the tech/ai can access and use it. Which, was also created by people.

To make the claim that AI (in general or in entirety) is better than humans is an insane claim to make. And only proves to show you have no actual understanding of what these LLMs actually are or how they actually work.

1 Like
#25

That thread is one of the first things you see when you click that user’s profile, since it’s their most liked topic. If viewing a profile is sad I guess the majority of users here fall into that “sad” category since more than 1100 users here have viewed my profile.

I’ve used a harsher tone in this thread than I usually do because the disrespect expressed towards teachers by some users here is sad to see.
But I was the first here to try to help OP by answering several of their questions, and recommend a resource I thought would be of use for them. So for to brand me as “mean spirited” just because I chose to stand in defence of one of society’s most important professions is pretty brazen of you.

If this is what the climate of the forums are turning into, where users shitting on human teachers is being supported and applauded, I probably won’t bother coming onto these forums at all anymore and just stick to Bunpro’s main site. So you can keep this AI circlejerk to yourselves, and deem me the bad guy to justify your shitty attitudes towards human teachers.

3 Likes
#26

You’re not understanding the point. The point is not that AI comes up with novel information that humans do not. The point is that humans don’t have clear and direct access to that information, in detail, inside their brains. It’s often generalized. Cliff-noted. Conflicted even. As well as filtered through their opinions and biases. Humans will make assumptions and fill in the parts they don’t know when asked to dive deeper, in order to save face. They fight to be right, at the expense of truth — and too proud (or consciously unaware) to admit it.

I have a had quicker, better, and more accurate results working with AI than I have with humans on multiple projects. I am not speaking from theory. Have you successfully leveraged AI, or unsuccessfully, such that your argument about humans providing more tangible value than AI for the jobs youve employed it to do, holds weight? I often find those opposed to AI don’t actually have enough credible/extensive experience using it to debunk it. Often it’s those who are too afraid, or angered by it, as a result of focusing primarily on all that AI takes, as opposed to exploring (and discovering) all that it can give.

2 Likes
#27

Ill pop back in since we got a bit off hand on all this AI talk and im more curious about studying habits and sentence translation.

No for sure, I will say because I realize i didnt mention it before, when I do my vocab reviews, I actually do go back and try to “literal Translate” after. Mostly taking a look at the particles and recognizing how each one is being utilized for a word or a grammar pattern. For instance 切っ掛け has been bending me over since it seemingly refuses to work in the manner I expect it to Probably gonna have to find a few videos on it specifically since Quartet doesnt have the best explanations for it.

So in this case, I do find myself trying to “literally translate” simple because I dont fully understand its usage. Im sure absolutely brute forcing it will get me there sooner or later though too. Caveman style has never failed me.

3 Likes
#28

I went back and reread his entire post again, where does he ever claim humans are currently inferior to LLM’s “in entirety”? He repeatedly claimed that AI in this specific context are not inferior, never that they are in every aspect superior. His arguments about human limitations are objectively true, who would argue peoples minds are limitless? We wouldn’t be here studying if it was. His arguments in favor of his use of AI are largely convenience and approach based, stating how they framed problems in more effective ways for him and was more open to his way of processing and discussing information. What is so wrong with that?

“Better” is subjective at the end of the day, I do not really see what sends people over the edge on this topic. Nothing he said is some offensive or unhinged statement to get these aggressive responses. The amount of negativity towards someone’s way of learning blows me away. We should be applauding someone for finding a way that is effective for them, not tearing them down and shaming them for not meeting our purity test.

3 Likes
#29

To be fair, who said humans have free will?

#30