The value of literal translations (for beginners). And, suggestions for applications that can provide automated interpretations/explanations

Japanese
#14

Ichi.moe is a litteral sentence parser. Type in a sentence and it pulls the definition from jisho.

Not a beginner, it’s really interesting to be flexible with definitions

I have a English and Japanese example.
Example sentence: 噂を広めたくないから誰にも言うな！
Me of course! 広める 広い+める = spread cause when it’s spread it’s wider

Or ‘you’ll get the hang of the difference between 晴る and 晴らす’
Me: uh, I just remember them all as ‘clear’ as in
“I can see clearly now the rain has gone. Cleared all the obstacles in my way”

And in English class today the Japanese teacher wrote: following year = ファロー→追って行く→後へ続く→翌年

Or I looked up わざとよそよそしくしないでください。in weblio よそよそしく:親しみがない。他人行儀である。
Oh, so it’s “don’t be distant… on purpose”. On purpose… that’s the difference between ‘cruel’ and ‘cold’

#15

I’m not dogmatic or keeping my head in the sand. I specified it in my initial comment (but your comment reads as if you missed it) that I’m only talking about AI in a language learning context. I know that AI is useful for progress in other fields like medicine. So it has it’s uses but not in language learning, which is what this discussion was concerning.

Language requires the sort of nuance and reflection that can only be performed by a human brain. Everyone’s allowed their own opinion, but to disagree with my previous sentence in this paragraph, to me, indicates that one has a very limited view of linguistics.

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#16

The way you speak is exactly what I was referring to, you make absolute and definitive claims while providing no proof other than “if you disagree you just don’t get it as well as I do” as your logic, hiding it behind altered verbiage. I appreciate you illustrating my point, however this thread is about the user and their feedback on how they best learn so I am not going to go back and forth with you to feed your ego.

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#17

I also found her videos super helpful. I think the fact she approaches it from a different perspective than other resources is what is so valuable. I just couldn’t get it with the normal sites but I was able to get through the biggest hiccups through her way of framing thingz. She handled japnese more like a robot/ai or in her words “legos” and that was much easier for me.

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#18

That’s fair. “Agree to disagree” is a perfectly valid conclusion to discussions. I’m not claiming or believing to speak only in absolute truths here. These are my personal opinions I’m expressing here, obviously.

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#19

I feel like making it personal liek that over what they wrote it taking it a bit too far lol it doesnt mean they cant talk to people it aint that serious lmao

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#20

This is my final comment in this thread (I promise). Just adding a source to back up my stance, since apparently the burden of proof is on me for some reason.
Here’s Vesicularorb’s post complaining about AI being unable to explain は vs が, without giving conflicting explanations.

@Vesicularorb Please take this comment for what I intended. Just a friendly jab to relieve some of the tension in this thread, with me being the instigator of creating that unneeded tension. Sorry.

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#21

It’s less about the emotional depth and more about fact and clarity. Consulting. I am repeatedly left disappointed when reaching out to “professionals” to help me resolve problems (for example, IT-related), being they talk in circles, tell me things aren’t possible when in fact they are, waste my time and my money, act out of desperation to save face and protect their pride, etc. AI is a better partner than humans will be in most situations, especially if you are smart yourself. Yes, I have to question and correct my AI, but to a lesser extent than I have to with people I’m forced to work with.

Would you rather put your trust in a being with direct access to less information, or a being with direct access to more information? You’d be foolish to go with the former.

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#24

“directly from data.”
Which comes from where? Oh, right people. People have to create, collect, interpret, and input that somewhere, where the tech/ai can access and use it. Which, was also created by people.

To make the claim that AI (in general or in entirety) is better than humans is an insane claim to make. And only proves to show you have no actual understanding of what these LLMs actually are or how they actually work.

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#25

That thread is one of the first things you see when you click that user’s profile, since it’s their most liked topic. If viewing a profile is sad I guess the majority of users here fall into that “sad” category since more than 1100 users here have viewed my profile.

I’ve used a harsher tone in this thread than I usually do because the disrespect expressed towards teachers by some users here is sad to see.
But I was the first here to try to help OP by answering several of their questions, and recommend a resource I thought would be of use for them. So for to brand me as “mean spirited” just because I chose to stand in defence of one of society’s most important professions is pretty brazen of you.

If this is what the climate of the forums are turning into, where users shitting on human teachers is being supported and applauded, I probably won’t bother coming onto these forums at all anymore and just stick to Bunpro’s main site. So you can keep this AI circlejerk to yourselves, and deem me the bad guy to justify your shitty attitudes towards human teachers.

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#26

You’re not understanding the point. The point is not that AI comes up with novel information that humans do not. The point is that humans don’t have clear and direct access to that information, in detail, inside their brains. It’s often generalized. Cliff-noted. Conflicted even. As well as filtered through their opinions and biases. Humans will make assumptions and fill in the parts they don’t know when asked to dive deeper, in order to save face. They fight to be right, at the expense of truth — and too proud (or consciously unaware) to admit it.

I have a had quicker, better, and more accurate results working with AI than I have with humans on multiple projects. I am not speaking from theory. Have you successfully leveraged AI, or unsuccessfully, such that your argument about humans providing more tangible value than AI for the jobs youve employed it to do, holds weight? I often find those opposed to AI don’t actually have enough credible/extensive experience using it to debunk it. Often it’s those who are too afraid, or angered by it, as a result of focusing primarily on all that AI takes, as opposed to exploring (and discovering) all that it can give.

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#27

Ill pop back in since we got a bit off hand on all this AI talk and im more curious about studying habits and sentence translation.

No for sure, I will say because I realize i didnt mention it before, when I do my vocab reviews, I actually do go back and try to “literal Translate” after. Mostly taking a look at the particles and recognizing how each one is being utilized for a word or a grammar pattern. For instance 切っ掛け has been bending me over since it seemingly refuses to work in the manner I expect it to Probably gonna have to find a few videos on it specifically since Quartet doesnt have the best explanations for it.

So in this case, I do find myself trying to “literally translate” simple because I dont fully understand its usage. Im sure absolutely brute forcing it will get me there sooner or later though too. Caveman style has never failed me.

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#28

I went back and reread his entire post again, where does he ever claim humans are currently inferior to LLM’s “in entirety”? He repeatedly claimed that AI in this specific context are not inferior, never that they are in every aspect superior. His arguments about human limitations are objectively true, who would argue peoples minds are limitless? We wouldn’t be here studying if it was. His arguments in favor of his use of AI are largely convenience and approach based, stating how they framed problems in more effective ways for him and was more open to his way of processing and discussing information. What is so wrong with that?

“Better” is subjective at the end of the day, I do not really see what sends people over the edge on this topic. Nothing he said is some offensive or unhinged statement to get these aggressive responses. The amount of negativity towards someone’s way of learning blows me away. We should be applauding someone for finding a way that is effective for them, not tearing them down and shaming them for not meeting our purity test.

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#29

To be fair, who said humans have free will?

#30
#31

No I think I am understanding it quite perfectly.

Neither does ai. Why do you think the keep giving ai better and better ability to search the web?

Yep, ai as well. It is well known that ai is HEAVILY filtered. If not, Venice chat would not exist and its selling point would not be “Venice doesn’t censor the AI.”

Have you actually used ai? I have this exact problem with ai ALL the time. Ai just LOVES to make stuff up and hallucinates all the f-ing time. I have NEVER had an ai tell me, “I don’t know.”

In the end, it just sounds like you are bad at talking with people. “Get gud scrub” comes to mind. Not really surprising though, a vast majority of all problems come down to user error anyway.

#32

So many problems with this argument.
First, if a learner found out they learn best through violent acts and other unsavory acts, would you be encouraging those learners as well? I don’t think so.
And no I am not saying what he is doing is in anyway equivalent to that. I am merely pointing to the flaw in your argument.

Second, you assume I care about what tools this person is using. I do not. What I care about is the malicious lies and inaccurate statements. First foremost that ai is, in anyway, unbiased. Ai is made by humans and humans are biased. Humans will ALWAYS transcribe their biases onto the things they make, in one form or another.

No, that user’s claim is explicitly that ai is superior, especially within this context.

#33

My favorite part about this argument is how those opposing what I’ve expressed turn emotional and hurl personal retorts as ammunition in their responses, essentially dismantling their own credibility. The fact of the matter is, AI is not going anywhere, and the more one chooses to fight against and limit its use cases, the further they fall behind the pack leveraging it successfully in their daily lives. You walk your path, I’ll walk mine. :v:

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#34
#35

Nothing productive is coming from this thread at this point so just going to lock it.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions on the value of AI (or lack thereof) for whatever various goals they have but discussions like the above are best reserved for forums specifically for that type of discussion.

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