努力というのはもっと主体的に目的的になされるもののことだ

[ljoekelsoey]

Am I slow?

There was a line in Norwegian Wood that blended こと and もの in a quite a bizarre way, I’ll need to see if I can find that somewhere.

This follows over from the nigh-on-violated “Am I slow” thread, but I felt too guilty to continue the tangent there so started this thread. @MacFinch I found the sentence I was telling you about.

(あれは努力じゃなくてただの労働だ。俺の言う努力というのはそういうのじゃない。)
努力というのはもっと主体的に目的的になされるもののことだ

This is a sentence from Norwegian Wood, the issue being with the final sentence. At the time of reading I found it to be very confusing, and had a long conversation with some friends about it. I’m still not sure I fully understand it to be honest. As far as I do understand it it means;

(That is not endeavouring, that’s just plain labour/work. That’s not the ‘endeavour’ I’m talking about. )
To endeavour is to purposefully and proactively do

(I take the doing to imply achieving an unspecified goal)

There is respect through the use of なされる and by inferring it is a tangible thing by using もの. Wondering if anyone had any thoughts?

[mrthuvi]

I think breaking it down might help making more sense out of it.

ことだ： アドバイスを表し/ this is an advise to the listener
努力というのは…もの 物事の本来の性質や傾向などを表す/ hard work is such a thing/hard work has certain characteristics

もっと主体的に目的的になされる
(more of something that can be) caused to become/willed to become something for yourself, something more purposeful

[MacFinch]

I am out of brain power for Japanese for today. I will try to understand it tomorrow.

Personal opinion nonsense xD - no need to read since it is not serious anyway

Just in case anybody wonder: too much grammar is bad for you. I feel literally sick after speed running N3… I would do it again, but I don’t recommend if somebody does not consider being in pain to be something of value… (there is no scientific reason to believe it works as well. It just fits my temperament)

I think I accidentally sign up to become a Buddhist of a sort. First path of 6 Paths of reincarnation is a Path of Hell…

Please keep debate up if there is something you disagree so I can read it tomorrow.

[s1212z]

tangible thing by using もの

I took もののことだ as a very emphasized ‘should’, there are many ‘mono’ statements of opinion as does ‘koto da’ (I do not associate ‘thing’ as I much I do judgement statement here for my understandings on mono anymore but it may work for others).

I’m reading “Hard work means it should be done proactively and intently”…which is essentially exactly what you said but ‘should’ is really emphasized as in a law nature type of strength of meaning that is beyond just opinion. At least this is how I’m reading it with said grammar points for もののことだ (if I had to guess, perhaps much like how だけしか is extra emphasis on ‘only’ compared to だけ or しか alone).

[MacFinch]

Am I slow?

こと and もの are pretty hard to get to terms with. もの、when used as a descriptor is a lot closer to らしい。

I will use a strange analogy, I guess this kinda refers back to my diagram. Imagine you have a ball, もの are the things painted on the outside of the ball that you can know without a doubt are real, you can see them, maybe its the pattern, the scratches from use, etc etc. こと is everything inside the ball. It’s always there, but you can’t verify it unless someone else verifies it for you, (is it full of air, poisonous gas? Who knows. Maybe someone maybe no one).

Example, if I show you a scar on my arm, it’s a もの、however if I then tell you the story of how I got that scar, it’s a こと、eventhough I told you the story, that history exists in my head, not yours.

i will put it here for the sake of easy access for people interesting in this subject in the future.

It would be nice to change title as well to make it easier to find if somebody will struggle with it as I do.

I will have a proper look after having my “morning” routing done

[ljoekelsoey]

Ive never come across もののこと used as an intensifier. Interestingly, id never come across だけしか either until very recently.

The use of なされる combined with もの made me think, and the context sort of points me this way too, that the idea of actively, concretely working towards a goal is almost a reverential concept for this person, というのは努力ということ. That sort of way.

[Asher]

もののこと For me this is just like (things within a thing). Drawing attention to the life within something that already exists as a result of something else. Let’s say that each hair on my arm is a もの, because they are attached to me, but that certainly does not mean that if I zoomed into that hair, it is in fact it’s own thing, full of things that I cannot see… Basically it is inception, and can come off as strengthening… but doesn’t necessarily need to.

[Asher]

( あれは努力じゃなくてただの労働だ。俺の言う努力というのはそういうのじゃない 。)
努力というのはもっと主体的に目的的になされるもののことだ

( That is not endeavouring, that’s just plain labour/work. That’s not the ‘endeavour’ I’m talking about . )
To endeavour is to purposefully and proactively do

That is not putting in effort, that is merely labour/work. The ‘putting in effort’ that I’m talking about is not like that
Putting in effort is that which one purposefully and proactively does.

もの by itself (That’s what putting in effort is - by nature)

もののことだ (That is that which putting in effort is - by nature) This one is stronger, but as you can see, even in English the nuance would be hard to describe.

I think the ‘that which’ is kinda just pointing out the answer and distinguishing it even further from anything that could be mistaken to be the same thing.

[nekoyama]

I think もののこと doesn’t have to be understood as an intensifier or even as a suggestion.

Aと(いうの)はBのことだ can just be a definition. A means B, A refers to B, A is about B. Many wikipedia articles start with a sentence using this pattern, and often they will end in nounのこと(である). Generally, sentences starting with というのは have to end with something in this grammatical form (noun+copula).

Here’s an entirely unemotional definition from wikipedia using this pattern:

磁気単極子(…)とは単一の磁荷のみを持つもののことである。
A magnetic monopole is something that only carries one magnetic charge.

Furthermore, なされる isn’t just respectful, it’s also still the passive form of なす. For example, I found this on the internet in the context of why shops selling sashimi should not be considered restaurants:

(…)刺身を作ることは、鮮魚介類の販売の方法としてなされるものであって(…)
Making sashimi being something that is done as a way to sell fresh seafood, …

Translating the original sentence along these lines would result in something like this:
An endeavour is something that is done more proactively and with purpose.

[ljoekelsoey]

So if I understand correctly, it is a noun within another noun essentially, yes?

Thanks all, very helpful indeed.

[mrthuvi]

「努力」とは何ですか？と質問されたとき、「努力というものは、〜ということです。」と答えます。
ことです、ことだ、ことを言います、ことを指します、のように、「こと」を使って説明を終えます。

さらに「努力」とは何かの答えは、この文では「もっと主体的に目的的になされるもの」であると言っていて、最後は「もの」で終わります。

そして、そのあとに「こと」で文を終わらせていますから、「もの」の「こと」だ という言い方ができます。

聞きなれない感じもしますが、正しくて十分あり得る言い方です。

This native speaker thinks the 努力というのは … ** のことだ** structure is to explain what kind of thing is 努力.
But because the explanation includes 主体的に目的的になされる so もの has to be added (presumably to nominalize the clause).

[ljoekelsoey]

Helpful, so it is indeed a noun within a noun.

I very much like this forum

[oliviaputyer]

I’m a lurker and happened upon this thread, Found it very instructive à propos of no curiosity with regards to the topic in particular.

But like, it was fun to read and all.

@ljoekelsoey , if you come across stuff like this again, do start another thread!