Am I slow?

Bunpro
#80

I’m not convinced that a beginner understanding that masu form etymology coming from mawirasu and seeing it as two words makes Japanese grammar easier to understand. In fact, very few may find it actually useful at all. I’d rather say it ‘conjugates’, and move forward though knowings it’s more conceptual for foreign language learning. Knowing the history of cars or skills of engine repair have very little to do with actual driving ability. It’s not to say it isn’t interesting. I like it in fact, at least to the point of functional linguistics for enchanced language study but not for the sake of it (my language journey is very much a part time gig, for others I can see the appeal if you have the background or pursuit).

I came across this book while responding here, seems there is quite alot of grammar-verb theory within native material though whether it covers this specific topic, IDK but the title seemed interesting (paradoxically, you need to learn Japanese grammar with its ‘conjugations’ to find out :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:)

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#81

I am not beginner then. Thank you. :hugs:

For me it is just normal helper verb with easy function that attach in almost 100% percent regular way to one of the stems of the verbs. Same with most other cases.

There are some weak points though to that approach. You have normal phonetical laziness in Japanese like for example this one https://bunpro.jp/grammar_points/74 and here it is easier for me to think about it as a conjugations of sort.

I choose precisely what makes it easier for me to understand. I did try Genki in past and Tae Kim. It does not work for me (Tae Kim is good if you keep in mind he is sometimes “wrong”).

It is programmatic approach. I don’t like studying Japanese. I want to use it asap. Studying it is just sad necessity.

Let assume that I am 100% wrong, and there is no way in hell you can understand it like that (very likely) without contradictions. I would still opt for it. I can study linguistic of Japanese after “mastering” it.

Japanese people as all people have not much clue how their language works. If they would know it there would be no need for researches: just ask native.

Similar approach to one propose here is working so far for me:

When it will stop working I will change it :hugs:

I can’t wait to be able to somewhat read it. I plan to “master” grammar by studying this kind of books in Japanese.

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#82

This one is good example for me to illustrate what I mean:

幸せなことに 、来年結婚します

I don’t try even to remember it should be translated as:
“I am extremely happy about getting married next year.”

Since it makes no sense to me at all.
(The happy thing)at <{(next year) (marriage) is or will do}(polite)>

It is enough for me to infer the meaning and it is natural to me to notice one thing. It would make more sense to make it into copula statement with “doing marriage” as subject or topic or normal suru sentence, so the fact it is not means probably that there is nuance or stress here.

Therefore “extremely” part is implicit. I trust my brain it will catch that nuance if it will appear 100-500 times.

Similar stuff with this one:


“sometimes” is implicit. Similar way as “Water boils at 100C” here. Or in “I read manga” but not “I am reading manga”.

Learning it is somehow explicit makes it harder while reading at normal speed. But knowing there is nuance to keep 1/100 eye on is helpful as well.

#83

I think I may have flagged this sentence before. I reckon a more appropriate translation would be Happily I am getting married next year.

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#84

That why I prefer word “interpretation”. It is closer to what we are doing :hugs:

I think there is one sad fact to accept if you want to learn the language. You have to be independent. It would be nice if you could understand it for me. But it will not happen…

Edit: @ljoekelsoey
Since it make me happy that I got confirmation that my “feeling” about grammar from N3 on which I spent maybe 5 minutes (I was speed adding like 30 grammar points a day and I am resting now to do the same to N2), I have to ask one question to test one of my little theories:

Would changing it to:
幸せなものに 、来年結婚します
make it a bit more explicit since もの is more concrete than こと? If not why do you think I got it wrong? :hugs:

I am not asking if natives speak like that. Let say it is for a poem.

#85

No, that doesn’t work, not as far as I understand it anyway. なことに turns 幸せ (happiness) into an adverb (happily). I don’t read or could even read poetry really, so I have no idea. I’ve never come across もの being used that way.

I suppose you could say something like 私って、来年結婚して、幸せなものに could have a somewhat poetic inference that I will become a happy thing when I marry? That’s a guess though. It doesn’t turn it into an adverb though, which is what なことに does in the above sentence.

There was a line in Norwegian Wood that blended こと and もの in a quite bizarre way, I’ll need to see if I can find that somewhere.

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努力というのはもっと主体的に目的的になされるもののことだ
#86

I my problem is grasping the difference between concept of koto and mono. I think I am close to getting the first one, but second one I am a bit lost. It looks like there is a difference here.

But pointing out that に also have function of making adverbials is very useful. I remember reading it but not getting it. I will look more into it. Thanks :hugs:

Edit:
This one seems like good start I think, but there is clearly more nuance and it looks important to me:

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#87

At a basic level, こと is something you can’t touch or feel, もの is a concrete, physical thing. As above though, もの can be used poetically to attach gravitas or importance, etc. This is not exactly unusual, but it is usually limited to literature. That or, as above, it can sound very teenage girly

日本へ行くこと going to japan -the こと turns “going to Japan” into a singular noun.
日本へ行くもの the person (thing) going to Japan. you could replace もの with 人 here.

Again, not to hound on Cure Dolly, but this is neither strange nor an advanced secret.

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#88

Remember her target audience. You have everything what it takes to be fluent if you already are not. You just want to hone your skills to higher lvl.

Her personality is strange but it does not bother me. As far as I know she can be terminally ill and she is enjoying last years on this planet without caring too much (hmm… she refers quite often to hospital vocab and her voice can be medical condition actually…)

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#89

Also to add, using もの instead of こと can have the effect of anthropomorphising something as well.

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#90

I think I understand now why people being “not fair” to Cure Dolly makes me so irrational. I am sexist (I can’t understand why somebody think man are even half that important as woman… Try to give a birth to a child and then we can try to talk about it) and on top of that I have disable wife, so my brain got a bit confused (I have zero tolerant to people trying to see if they can bully her over it. “Make my day and try it on me” kind of spirit). I am still polish after all I guess:

He says something that should be understood as: “What the fxxk?! Apologise to the lady or else. Now or I will fxxk you up” (he does not even care that they don’t speak polish xD )

I can see by his behaviour that he does not know, when they explain to him what they do, if he should start “fxxking him up” or wait for more information. And he seriously consider the first option since there was no “I am sorry” xD

Look at the lady as well: She looks happy to me. Not offended at all xD

I try my best to not be too polish on the internet but I guess you can’t stop being what you are at will… Btw: first time I seen this video I was thinking they are brave. Doing something similar in Poland can easily end very sad. That probably main reason we have low crime rate despite considering “just aggression” as a virtue almost.

I will try to keep it in mind, but trying to use something that can be sigh of medical problems to discredit somebody is not cool as well. I think nobody sane would disagree with that. :hugs:

__
It is scary to think how often we act out ideas without even knowing we have them… Especially when many (most?) of them are stupid beyond believe (confirmation bias for example)…

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#91

Everyone has their own pattern, limits and process. I consider my process to be pretty slow to be honest, but I’m content with it because it allows me sufficient study time as well as allowing myself free time outside of study. Which is super important, especially when working full time.

As you are starting with N5 grammar, it probably feels like it is taking forever because you’ll be subconsciously establishing your personal learning habits. It can take a lot out of you without realising.

Please don’t be too hard on yourself. I have days where I feel like I should be a lot further on than I actually am. I’m sure everyone does. But we should never let it get the better of us. :slight_smile:

If you feel like you are sufficiently challenging youself, and you’re managing to retain the information you’re learning, then you’re doing great. If you genuinely feel like you could push a little harder, then by all means do so!

We’re behind you either way :slight_smile:

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#92

Brilliant advice. If I may also add, if you feel you are struggling to keep everything in and it’s all piling up, take it down a few notches too, quality over quantity! がんばれ！

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#93

The titles are kinda clickbaity and the doll may be off-putting at first but she really does give another perspective that has been very beneficial to me. She has personally helped me with direct questions many times. She may not work for some like yourself but to others, and with a healthy mix of learning material, her lessons help fill in some gaps. :slight_smile:

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#94

こと and もの are pretty hard to get to terms with. もの、when used as a descriptor is a lot closer to らしい。

I will use a strange analogy, I guess this kinda refers back to my diagram. Imagine you have a ball, もの are the things painted on the outside of the ball that you can know without a doubt are real, you can see them, maybe its the pattern, the scratches from use, etc etc. こと is everything inside the ball. It’s always there, but you can’t verify it unless someone else verifies it for you, (is it full of air, poisonous gas? Who knows. Maybe someone maybe no one).

Example, if I show you a scar on my arm, it’s a もの、however if I then tell you the story of how I got that scar, it’s a こと、eventhough I told you the story, that history exists in my head, not yours.

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努力というのはもっと主体的に目的的になされるもののことだ
#95

100% this. The joy of learning at your own pace is that you can pump it up or ease off whenever you feel is appropriate.

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#96

Most advices turn around not being overwhelmed, which is a good point to check
But on the flipside of the learning coin, it is also good to try and assess one is not too cautious in not being overwhelmed. Sometimes the chosen progress speed may indeed be too slow. I recently discovered that I could understand more than I thought in japanese only video. It is a good thing to assess regularly one’s own capacity regardless of what one thinks. As for being too slow, a good indicator is if reviewing or studying is not tiring at all.

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#97

If you are learning, then you are not going too slow.

I use BunPro, Rocket Languages, and WaniKani and some days it can feel overwhelming to the point that one of them is neglected. WaniKani and BunPro are the ones that I never neglect though as the review and lesson thing really hurts my brain if I stop.

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#98

I know you didn’t say this, MacFinch, but would you mind explaining more how this works? Or providing any links?

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#99

I wish there was some method or mnemonic to remember the grammar points. I’ve stopped adding new items at 20 because I still confuse the various versions of “there”, “is”, “isn’t it”. My free trial ends today and I don’t feel like I’ve learned 30 days of worth of stuff, compared to something like WaniKani.

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