たとえ ... ても

English translation:
even if…is the case
supposing that

Structure:
たとえ + Verb[ ても ]
たとえ + いAdj[く ても ]
たとえ + なAdj + でも
たとえ + Noun + でも

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Since にしても is marked as related, I wanted to grasp their differences… looking at example sentences for both, they seem really similar (it looks like I could always change にしても for たとえ〜も and vice-versa).

That said, taking a sentence as example:

たとえ 彼が太っ ても 力士にならないだろう。彼は相撲向きではないから

And changing to にしても:

彼が太るにしても 力士にならないだろう。彼は相撲向きではないから

Would there be an indication, in the second one but not the first, that he is already getting fat ? In other words, the second talks about a situation that is already somewhat happening , while the first is purely hypothetical ?

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Hey :grinning:

Sorry for the late answer :bowing_man:

Yes, you are right, they are often interchangeable though にしても has some interesting nuances and sometimes cannot be swapped with ても.

First of all, にしても comes from にする “to make”, “to decide”
It conveys desire・decision of the speaker or someone/something he/she is speaking about.
As you said, にしても might mean that the situation is actually the case (he is gaining weight), or extremely probable. Therefore it cannot be used when something is improbable.
In ても case, the probability is lower (there is another expression, としても which expresses an even lower degree of probability).

So if we compare those two:
彼が太る にしても 力士にならないだろう。

たとえ 彼が太っ ても 力士にならないだろう。

The first one will convey his own decision to gain weight (or the fact that he is gaining weight).
Even if he DECIDES TO gain weight/ even if it is a case that he is putting weight/even if he JUDGES gaining weight to be REASONABLE…

The second one doesn’t have this nuance, in other words, he might gain weight by his own decision or not (gain it against his will for example). The probability is lower. It is also not the case.
There is no intention or desire conveyed.

Also, notice that ても doesn’t have past (perfect) form.
Using にしても you can convey something that happened (surely was the case):

ても:
X

にしても:
彼が太った にしても 力士にならないだろう。
Even though he gained fat, he will probably not become a wrestler.

But like I said before, you cannot use にしても when something is improbable:

にしても:
X

ても:
たとえテレポートできても、故郷に帰らないだろう。
Even if I could teleport, I would still not return to my hometown. (because I hate it that much)

(たとえテレポートできたとしても、故郷に帰らないだろう。)

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This example came up on a different grammar point (きる):
たとえ どんなことがあっ ても 勇者ゆうしゃさまをしんじきります。
No matter what will happen, I trust the hero completely

I’m having a hard time seeing how “Even if” could be converted in this translation. You guys added on the last example using “No matter…” and it seemed to work but not this example

I’m adding a “No matter if…” as an application meaning

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I think what was confusing me on the last question was the combination of
たとえ was the addition どんな(に)

This came up on another outside example and I guessing the combination of たとえどんなに is adding emphasis (?) kinda like a もし+conditional situation…am I right here? The seems to be an "Even if/no matter how’ combination that is complimenting these two points.

Than this application “no matter if…” is only when どんな(に)is present for たとえ…yes?

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That’s right!

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I’m a bit confused about what appears to be the inclusion of two words/speech particles conveying “even if”. たとえ and ても both can be translated as “even if”, so why have both? I feel like for this grammar point–and many others-- traditional English translations miss the mark by telling the learner the English equivalent without explaining the logic of the Japanese language in vivo. Can anyone help?

たとえ is an expression that allows us to indicate the direction we’re going in at the beginning of the sentence. Because it adds direction beyond the bare minimum, it can also emphasise the “even if” aspect. I’d not compare it to ても as such, but rather to other similar expressions like もし or 仮に.

たとえA - I’m going to talk about something that is true anyway. Even if the extreme and/or low probability A also were to be true, that would not change anything.

仮にA - I’m going to talk about a hypothetical situation that might or might not happen if A is true. The main point I want you to understand right now is that it’s all hypothetical.

もしA - I’m going to talk about a hypothetical situation where A is true, but the main thing I’m interested in and want to talk about is what happens in that case where A is true.

In English, we can say something like “even if A, B” and we don’t need to do much to connect A and B. Even if we leave out the comma it kind of still works. In Japanese, this is not the case. These expressions I listed above all convey meaning and intention, but grammatically, there still needs to be something at the end of the clause that allows us to keep talking.

This is why ても is needed when we use たとえ. Strictly speaking, it doesn’t have to be ても. It could be something like せよ. But the point is that for something like “even if A, B” we need some way to connect A and B that allows for A being hypothetical. ても is one way to do that.

The some is true for the other two. 仮に just introduces a hypothetical situation, so there are a lot more options. It could be used with ても but also with conditionals like たら and so on. With もし on the other hand, the focus is on what happens when A is true. Therefore ても is not a good fit but it’s very often used with conditionals like たら.

In short, たとえ has value over ても because it’s more focused (since it can be used in fewer situations), and allows the speaker to tell the listener right away in what direction the sentence is going. But for grammatical reasons, something like ても is still needed anyway.

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Alright, that makes sense. I had forgotten it before my original reply, but I had the same confusion with もし too, so I’m glad you included it in your reply.
I think it might help me out–with my English-orientated brain–to mentally add parentheses around the たとえ, sort of like one does for English phrases like “for instance”, “case in point”, “for example”, or many sentence opening adverbs like “additionally”.
I really appreciate the effort you put into your reply; it’s been a great help!

Please does that mean with にしても, he is most likely to gain weight but with たとえーでも he is unlikely to gain weight