て + たまるる + [か/ものか] (て堪るか/ものか)

Japanese
#1

Hello Bunpro, this is my first message. I want to ask if could you add this form to reviews because i’m having a lot of problems with it, and it’s hard even to veterans to explain it:

封じられてたまるかこの思い

Minute 1:22 (for context)

One person told me that the sentence means this:
“I won’t be sealed” aka I won’t let myself be in a state where the emotions can’t be set free.

And i’m not sure if the sentence is a colloquialism of この思いを封じられてたまるか* or not, being この思い the indirect subject or not.

Edit: Because the grammar point was noticed in Missing grammar list i’ll just leave this post open but for my question, in the Japanese related category.

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#2

Well, like the imabi link in the post you referenced indicates, ～てたまる “[shows] a strong resolution of not having something be in such a state/condition.” Here, that state or condition is 封じられる. I think the passive is probably what’s meant (over against the potential, which has the same conjugation for 一段動詞), so “being prevented, being forbidden,” that kind of idea. Putting these together, I guess 封じられてたまるか would be something like, “I would never be prevented,” maybe?

The following lines in the song seems to match with that.

君に届くまで終われない。苦しい時聴けばいい存在になれるまで。

It cannot end until I reach you. Heed these painful times until I can be (there? with you?).

聴く is hard to translate here because I’m not sure of the nuance that particular kanji spelling has over 聞く, but since ばいい expresses emphatic advice, I chose “heed.” 存在になれる is kind of hard too. The dictionary meaning of 存在 is simply, “existence, being,” but I’ve seen it used more along the lines of one’s presence or one’s existence in a personal sense (e.g. 先輩あたしの存在に気づいた！). Presumbly, the vocalist is talking about being present with 君 (you–whomever the song is being “sung to”).

Take that all with a grain of salt. I’m a fumbling language learner trying to apply what little I know. Hopefully, that’s at least helpful and not completely wrong…

Oh, one parting note. From having previously used song translation (of my favorite Japanese band, Tears of Tragedy) as a learning tool, I can tell you that it’s often especially hard to do. Song lyrics tend to be poetic and literary, which means you’ll find more rarely used words, expressions, and senses of words you thought you knew. If you’re sticking with pop music, then maybe to a lesser degree, but in general, lyrics are much harder to translate than ordinary prose.

#3

I wanted to know why この思い was in the end of the sentence,without the を particle, but I didn’t asked for it anywhere.

But those days I asked a native person about it the reason of the position of この思い in the sentence, using two sentences as reference (I did it in this manner because she is native but she isn’t studying Japanese):

封じられてたまるかこの思い、+ a bit more for context

この思いを封じられてたまるか, + a bit more for context

She answered yes, both means the same with a difference in the emphasis.

Anyways sir, you gave me a nice answer expanding the translation to the next two sentences including grammar explanation. I’ll be looking to your message those days when I get a bit of time! so… Thanks you so much!

Also, and as a gift for you, 聴く also means to listen but paying more attention than 聞く

#4

Oh, I see. Yeah, that’s 体言止め, which is another common element in literary Japanese you would rarely hear in the spoken language. It’s not quite the same as simply moving the direct object to the end of the sentence, although as the native speaker indicated, in this sentence, it doesn’t change the meaning much (though it does add a literary flavor to it). What’s happening is 封じられてたまるか is forming a relative clause that modifies the noun. You can think of it as, “these thoughts/feelings that are not (at all) being prevented/restrained.” The emphasis is slightly different in English, but English is also much pickier about word order than Japanese.

If you were to transpose この思い back to the beginning of the sentence, it’d be この思いが封じられてたまるか. Both the potential and the passive strongly prefer が (although this is not a hard and fast rule).

And you know, the more I think about it, the more I think I was wrong in my original assessment that 封じられて was passive instead of potential. I think the writer might have in fact meant they couldn’t restrain their emotions, as opposed to them being suppressed (by an unstated actor).

Also, and as a gift for you, 聴く also means to listen but paying more attention than 聞く

Yeah, I saw that sense listed on goo. Supposedly (according to Jisho), it’s also used in legal contexts and for listening to music. The former meaning in particular means to make in inquiry (i.e. to ask a question) as opposed to listening.

It could also be the writer simply wanted to use the “more complicated” or less common kanji for aesthetic reasons. This is another thing that sometimes happens in literature. You’ll occasionally find simple verbs like 飲む spelled 呑む and 食う spelled 喰う, for instance. From what I’ve read (which isn’t as extensive as others no doubt), even native speakers differ on whether alternate spellings like these have any real significant difference meaning. Sometimes you’ll see 呑む cited as meaning “swallowing whole” instead of just drinking, but I’ve read questions from native speakers answered by native speakers saying it’s just an artistic way of writing the same word. These kinds of connotations might or might not be reflected in the dictionary, which is why I wasn’t sure about 聴く.

#5

Which might be relevant, since the part before this is about expressing feelings in a song, which should be easy but somehow isn’t. So those feelings stay sealed up inside until they can get through to 君.

The 聴 then might be a hint that 苦しい時聴けばいい存在になれるまで is about the songs when they say “until I/they can become something that’d be good for you to listen to when you’re in pain”.

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