Update: 2/17 - Decks & Vocab Beta

I didn’t say that they hadn’t thought about this, just that I haven’t seen it. However, I have seen “we’ll figure out how to use the sentences” statements multiple times.

I use the iknow.jp list app for the reasons that you mention. I also use the spreadsheet on core6000.neocities.org/ as a source for example sentences.

I have a lot of sources for new vocabulary. The primary for me being Tobira, Bunpro, news, Satori reader. Eventually, the time comes to learn the vocabulary. I have learned from experience that my vocab retention is much higher if I include an example sentences in my Anki cards. I have have tried using the current grammar sentences in Bunpro (and Tobira, and …) as the example sentences in my Anki deck, but those sentences are not written with the goal to illustrate a particular word. For me, that makes them bad example sentences for that purpose. I ended up replacing them all with example sentences from core6K because they were simpler.

In my mind, this illustrates perfectly that great grammar sentences are not the same as great vocab sentences.

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I completely agree that the core6K deck is not challenging. My point is that that is a feature!

Great reading text should be challenging. There you find vocabulary that you want to learn. When you want to learn that vocabulary, understand what words it is collocated with, see examples of how to use it, I don’t think it is the best use of student’s trying to plow through even more challenging sentences. Rather, it is better to give them simpler sentences that focus on that particular word. That’s exactly what the core6K sentences do, even for the most advanced vocab. This is why wrote great vocab sentences are not the same as great reading practice.

On the Bunpro grammar example sentences, it has not been a problem for me that they have been referred to unknown grammar. However, it is a constant source of annoyance that they use vocabulary and kanji that goes well beyond the grammar level that they are teaching.

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Thanks for the feedback! I really appreciate you taking the time to write all that up and include great examples of what you mean. It really helps us understand where you are coming from.

I think our approach is a bit different than other’s and it can look messy and be hard to understand when you don’t have the insight of seeing behind the curtain to all the moving parts.

As a principle, we will never release something in a finished “perfect” state. There are too many things that get stuck in development for years on end or take a long time to develop and when they are finally released are so far off base from what people really need.

Everything we do flows from a philosophy of putting out something that at a minimum had a base inherent value to everyone and their studies, and then we iterate and build upon it, sometimes scrapping things and sometimes completely overhauling it before we expand it into the rest of the site.

Our approach is very iterative and at times messy and prone to changes and pivots. I know for a fact that we don’t have all the answers but we do know that those answers can be found but only by trying, learning and improving.

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I think that you raised a lot of good points Narfi, the main difference between the sentences that you linked, and that ones that we are using on the website is that our sentences are working with a range of difficulties and nuances of specific words.

The sentences are designed as follows -

1-2 - As easy as possible. Simple sentences that use the word, and a bit of basic grammar.
3-4 - A little bit harder, focus more on the nuance of the word, and use slightly more challenging grammar.
5-6 - Focus primarily on natural sentences in which you would use that word in daily life
7-8 - Focus on any unique nuances of the word, or potentially any colloquial uses, if they exist.

For your example of the collocation of 被る, that is indeed a very good word to know when referring to hats, and we do have 被る in two of the context sentences for 帽子

暑い日は帽子を被って頭を守りましょう。
私の兄は芸能人なので、外を出歩くときは必ず帽子を深く被りマスクもつけるようにしている。

The first example should be readable by someone that is near the completion of N5, but the second one is harder. Actually, 被 itself is an N2 kanji, despite the word 被る itself being N5.

Another feature that users have access to here is the ability to click on any unknown words and instantly see their example sentences as well (something that I don’t think can be done elsewhere). A perfect example of this is the case that a student does not actually know what 被る means. Right now, a student can click on 被る in any example sentence, and the two easiest example sentences that we have for it are:

帽子を被る。
山に雪が被っている。

Both readable by N5, with the second example giving the user a nuance of 被る that an English native would not usually think to use. Strengthening their understanding of the range of nuances that it can have in Japanese.

For 辞書, it is certainly useful to say that it could be ‘used’, but you can use almost anything, so 使う doesn’t give us much extra information about what a 辞書 even is. A 辞書 could be a spoon for all the reader knows.

With 三冊, it lets the reader know straight away that it is a book of some sort.
Sentence two that it is a book that can be very old
Sentence three a book that can be taken to school
Sentence four that a new one may be needed depending on grade
Sentence five a book that can be electric or paper
Sentence six that it is a book that has new words added to and removed from it every year.

By this point, the user would almost certainly be able to guess that it is a dictionary, even if they didn’t look at what the English meaning for the word 辞書 was at any point.

This is the primary focus of the way that Bunpro is approaching the sentences. Through reading alone, you should be able to ‘figure out’ the meaning of the word. That is not something that can be accomplished with one (very easy) sentence.

As for using words and kanji that readers may not understand, this is something that will happen in any form of reading, whether it be from a book (that would follow a logical flow and have context like you mentioned), or a news article etc. The only difference being that (eventually) all of this information will be interactable on Bunpro. Don’t know a certain word? Click on it to see its own context sentences and add it to your own deck of new words.

This (if done well) will keep everything in a closed system that very slowly builds on itself, opening up the possibility for what users can read (and in-turn, use) faster than any other method. It will also allow the user to scaffold their learning by following only trails of new words/nuances that interest them. This is more of a long term goal though, and something that we are putting lots of thought into. Feedback like yours is really useful for us though, as we can (and will) continue to make adjustments in the future based on good ideas that we get in the form of feedback, in addition to our overall vision of making learning as streamlined as possible.

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I completely agree that this is a great goal. If you had sentences such that an N5 level reader could read them and infer all of the following:

With 三冊, it lets the reader know straight away that it is a book of some sort.
Sentence two that it is a book that can be very old
Sentence three a book that can be taken to school
Sentence four that a new one may be needed depending on grade
Sentence five a book that can be electric or paper
Sentence six that it is a book that has new words added to and removed from it every year.

That would be amazing! However, that would require them to be all written at the N5-N4 level. In reality, they can’t read more than 2-3 sentences. That makes it very hard to infer any meaning without access to a translation.

I do think there are merits to the harder sentences. For example, they are great reading practice for more advanced students. But at that point, they will have long learned all about the words for a dictionary.

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The primary goal of the sentences was and still is to aid the monolingual transition, something that is prohibitively difficult with only N5 grammar/vocabulary. With the context sentences, any student with an N3 level (or thereabouts) of vocabulary/grammar should be able to read enough of the sentences to infer the meaning.

The inference of the meaning itself, without looking at the English, is the main skill that we want to help people build, as that is one of the biggest hurdles to dropping English as a crutch.

100% agree that maybe one or two extra sentences aimed at N5 (specifically using collacations) would be useful though, even if only for the purpose of highlighting a common usage pair :ok_hand:.

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Hey! I don’t think this has been brought up yet, but whenever I set a deck to flashcard style reviews (since the type-in style is pretty crunchy as of yet) it sets all new grammar to flashcard style, so I have to initially study the grammar through normal means and then study the vocab in the deck.
If I study a flashcard style grammar point and click “Known”, it will clear the review with a green bar, but will at the same time type “Known” into the bar and when I hit continue it will tell me to type my answer in with hiragana. It would be great if grammar and vocab review styles could be set independently for decks, or if grammar reviews defaulted to type-in no matter what you have your vocab words set to.
I can’t complain too much since it’s a beta and all, and it has a ton of potential. I’m excited to see where this goes!

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The dashboard review forecast has been updated to split vocab and grammar!

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Thank you for color coding the Review Forecast! It looks great. I even found the somewhat hidden feature to display grammar or vocab only :wink:
The only thing I could possibly criticize would be the scaling. Now that I’ve flooded my reviews with all the N5 vocab, whenever there’s only one review an hour the bar is only 1px high and I can’t hover over it. I have 56 reviews at some point today and the forecast scales up to 100. But this is really such a minor problem :sweat_smile:

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Nice, just saw that, and instantly decided that perhaps I ought to start the N5 vocab deck after all (I’m also doing the kitsun N5, but I guess they’ll re-enforce each other). The thing is… how do I find the N5 vocab deck from the dashboard? Or has that not been added yet?

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You will need to navigate to the Decks page first. You can set a Deck as your “Main” deck and then use the study link in the navbar to quickly study from it.

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I see! But then every time I press “study”, I’ll get vocab rather than grammar, right?

In which case, I think perhaps I won’t use the feature, as really Bunpro is for grammar. Unless there were two buttons (1) “study grammar,” and (2) “study vocab”. Is that going to be added?

And can we edit the answers as in kitsun? For example, the second card in the deck requires the answer “car no. 1”, of course I’d like to edit that to “car 1” just to save typing!

(A touch of arthritis in my finger joints, along with WK, kitsun, and now bunpro, plus two-finger typing, means the fewer key punches the better!)

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Ah I see, you will need to opt into the beta first. You can do that via your settings.

We will be releasing some updates for decks and vocab soon that will include a synonyms option which will let you set alternate answers which would be similar to what you mentioned!

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Got it! Perfect! Thank you!

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would love an option where the vocab deck example sentences dont go to waste.

i really like the format the N5 deck applies with giving you the word and then having multiple example sentences in ascending difficulty.

→ Why not use them in reviews? Right now you only look at them as single words and only see the example sentences if you recheck or if you are newly putting them into the SRS. Its far more natural to learn and recognize words in a sentence than standalone. You could make it an option if people want to be quizzed on the single word or the word in one of the example sentences. This could go further in that you could let the individual user “set” which N-Level sentences shall be used “all example sentences, only till level NXYZ, no example sentences”. Maybe offer people to let them add example sentences for a word as well if they wish so

I think it doesnt matter that we dont have translations. If you are not good enough to get them, disable the setting or look up the words/grammar you are missing- this is about learning the words anyways- and i think even if you dont perfectly understand the sentence, the context will help!

This would also make this different from a stale vocab flashcard srs and further the immersion/understand from context approach to get more used to trying to understand sentences. No use in quizzing 1k words without context and 10 translate to the same thing, but you only checked the example sentences once or twice = you actually learn their real usage when you encounter them in the wild later.

Personal opinion, but I think the effort spent on the example sentences would be good for SO much if all this or some of this was made an option

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Great update, it might be a good idea to make the toggle more obvious because i wouldnt have know it was there if @Katzerin didnt mention it.
Are there any plans to have a way to order the vocab based on how common they are or would that be too much work to implement due to the amount of words?

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will you add audio for vocabs?

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Apart from the “implement vocab in sentence review” thingie i mentioned above, idk if it was brought up already but another thing that just came to me (using N5 vocab deck as an example, doesnt matter though which vocab deck this is applied to): I definitely know the majority of N5 vocab already- would be amazing if when scrolling through the decks’ page we could “mark/toggle” something as “I know this!” without page refreshing and from the decks’ viewpoint - maybe a small checkbox or mark icon at the end, same as the srs indicators if its already in the queue?

Right now I add eg. 5 new words with “add to reviews”, cant even mark them as “known” from the item page before their first review as of now. Then after the 1st review I will mark 4-5 of them as “I know this” so that the easy words I already know wont appear anymore. Lots of redundant effort.

Same probably goes for grammar point decks, but especially with hundreds or even more of vocab decks and rising, this will cut the time (needed to make a deck individually useful for oneself) down by a few times and seems fundamental to have.

As always good work and hope feedback helps a bit with some ideas and practical implementations. Thanks for reading this! :slight_smile:

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I second that last item.

Two thing I miss on the BunPro Review Forecast from the WaniKani Ultimate Timeline Script is the possibility to have details about the reviews.

Like what is the exact time of the Reviews, what types of itens would be covered, for example what grammar points or what vocabulary would be on the review, what’s the SRS level of each item, etc. This is important to me because it helps me time the next reviews and also allows me to see if the review will be mostly easier stuff that I already know or have a higher SRS level, or if it would be a review full of things that I don’t yet have a good mastery, so I will have to put more effort.

These things also helps a lot when planning the number of reviews to do for the day, because if there are a lot of low SRS itens, I know that there will be a lot of reviews relatively close to each other and would usually plan on doing an extra review session at lunch time, complementing the morning and evening ones.

Also the low SRS itens and certain grammar points normally take longer to review, so if there is 50-100 reviews for my 9:00 review session and I see that a lot of them are either low SRS or harder grammar topics, I would do less topics on that session, and, again, try to fit an extra review session, if possible.

The way the Review forecast is organized right now, isn’t very useful in planning my daily studies, and that’s why I’m wary to expand my studies to the vocabulary decks and to the textbook decks, even thou I really want to try the N5 vocabulary deck.

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There is “Show Upcoming Reviews” button on your profile page Log in | Japanese Grammar SRS that does kinda similar thing.
Hope it helps.

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