Just looking at N3 lessons overview screen. Was just thinking to myself things like; are the grammar points in lesson one more frequent / valuable / easier than those found in lesson 10.
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I believe theyโre supposedly grouped by theme. The vast majority of stuff at N3 is useful and common. Some of it is harder than other parts. Synonym hell begins at N3 but everything else starts to get easier!
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I donโt know the thinking/principles behind it, but I will say that the recent ordering compared to a couple of years ago โ to me at least โ feels a lot more incremental/gradual and in a more โlogicalโ order. Maybe not absolutely, but overall.
I had previously gotten up to about N3-ish, but reset a while back due to burn-out, and to be able to experience the new โBP orderโ from the beginning. Once I got past the basics (again), N5, most of N4 โ which I whizzed through pretty easily โ and re-encountered N3, I really noticed/felt and appreciated the new ordering. I canโt give you any specifics. This is just my own subjective โfeelโ for it.
That being said, I may be biased in my recollection because many of the points were ones I had already begun studying in my first go round. Also, I had significantly changed my approach the second time around, โtaking my timeโ more, not rushing, and overall just doing lessons at a slower pace.
So, perhaps my recollection is tinted by that. However, in writing this comment, Iโve tried to subjectively โaccountโ for that bias, and I still consider the new order to be significantly superior, including on entirely new items that I hadnโt gotten around to studying yet previously.
One thing that seems to me to be different is that items that are pretty similar tend to be grouped together more closely. This seems to aid in learning, because you more-quickly encounter the subtle differences in nuance, instead of over-learning one specific usage (of, say, one particular usage of ๆง (ใใ)), and then having to try to figure out the nuance with a different usage, with the two items being at vastly different SRS levels (Beginner vs. Seasoned, or whatever). Overall, I find this clustering much more helpful for learning, and less frustrating, too.
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Yeah, like ใซใใใจ,ใซใใฃใฆ, and ใซใใ are all in the same group
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Theyโre grouped primarily by theme. That theme could be structure, meaning, or occasion of use.
Theyโre also grouped from easiest to hardest for the most part, with the points that donโt really fit in any specific group being put just wherever makes sense.
Being that the grammar builds on itself, we are a bit limited in the order we can teach, but we generally attempt to put the more interesting points near the beginning of a level so that we can use them again in later sentences to get plenty of exposure.
Slight sidetrack - Actually you may remember from some of the reordering posts that we named the lessons within an overall level. Weโre planning on putting these names with a brief explanation of each lesson โgoalโ on the website soon. This will split up the grammar search page quite a bit and hopefully make the lesson structure way easier to follow.
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You know those little cages they used for bingo games? Where it just randomly spits out one. Pretty sure it was a process pretty simular to that. What other explanation would there be fore teaching ใใใซ after ใใใซใใใ ใใใซ่จใใand ใใใซ็ฅใ?
ใใใซ (JLPT N4) | Bunpro โ Japanese Grammar Explained (N4 - 10)
ใใใซใใ (JLPT N4) | Bunpro โ Japanese Grammar Explained (N4 - 9)
ใใใซใใ (JLPT N4) | Bunpro โ Japanese Grammar Explained (N4 - 9)
ใใใซใใฎใ (JLPT N4) | Bunpro โ Japanese Grammar Explained (N4 - 9)
And if that doesnโt convince you, the glorious bingo machine also decided for vocab that shelf should be taught AFTER bookshelf. So itโs actually a bingo machine, or at least thatโs the lie Iโm telling everyone from now on.
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Reason - ใใใซ๏ผ่จใ๏ผ๏ผ็ฅใ๏ผ๏ผใใ๏ผ each have one meaning, while ใใใซ + (phrase) by itself can be used to convey many different things, so is technically more difficult .
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Is there evidence for it being more difficult, e.g., psycholinguistic papers that you referred to when making this decision (and all of the others like it).
I am not sure that placing similar grammar points together is better than spreading them out. I can see an argument for immediate contrast, and I can see an argument for getting confident on one before being exposed to other similar points. Again, I would expect there to be psycholinguistic research on issues like this.
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Counter point. The structure of those points have ใใใซ in them. So it is still effectively saying โhere is the explanation, we use this point you havenโt seen yet btwโ
And if you donโt like those three
Is N4 - 6
Youโre telling a person that a copy machine copies paper but refusing to tell them what paper is.
Also
On ^ this point. Red is only one colour and technically more simple then colour as a whole since colour can be a lot of things, but youโd still teach colour as a concept before specializing on a colour.
P.S. Iโm watching a video of a possum eating a broccoli right now. Incase someone wanted to know
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One could argue that the idea of grammar points as a whole is a silly concept, as theyโre just glorified vocabulary.
Personally, I am in the boat that itโs better to spread out similar concepts over time to staircase it. If you put them all together it is very easy to get them muddled, which is something I often have issues with. (right now grinding out the โๆฌ่ชโ n4 section and it all blends together so I cannot understand anything) While maybe in a formal setting with an instructor teaching it and simplifying the differences it may be different, online itโs better to get down a base idea before moving into the nuances.
There is research out there on this idea, however every person is different, and it really comes down to you as an individual learner to learn your own style.
I have studied how I learn for a few years myself. I have come to the conclusion for my own knowledge, I learn best in a classroom setting, with learning the broad basics, then rigorous drilling, finally I go into the nuances. Of couse, many other people would say that would be torture.
My advice if you struggle with this, is to sit back and figure out how YOU learn.
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I assume that the overview screen you were looking at is the lesson page. In case you havenโt seen it, there is a community post called Bunpro Grammar Explanations, N3! with more details about the lesson order.
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Just a minor counter-counter point:
When I was in kindergarten, I remember learning the names of some colours I hadnโt learned before (I dunno, like pink or purple or whatever).
The overall โlessonโ was learning colour, but in order to learn the general concept of colour it was necessary to have some concrete examples to work with, i.e. several examples of specific colours and their names.
So, learning concrete examples and then learning the general concept can also be a good ordering to learn something.
On the other hand, I think a case can be made either way. And there is the fact that weโre learning this as adults, and so we already know (many/most) general concepts and just need the โtranslationโ, whereas specific examples with specific nuances can arguably wait.
Maybe there are cases where the Japanese grammar has genuinely new (or at least novel) general concepts grouped with their concrete examples โ maybe something akin to the ใฏ/ใ issue, or actually the concept of grammatical particles vs. specific particles is a good example overall, Iโd say โ so there may be arguments for both orderings, depending on the different specific grammar โthemesโ.
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Just FYI, due to Bunproโs flexibility, you can easily work-around any ordering to suit your own preferences. E.g. on any particular item, you could Remove From Reviews, or Mark as Mastered (temporarily, then Reset SRS on the item later when ready to really study it).
Not saying this is an ultimate solution, but at least itโs a workaround that really does work.
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If you find something relevant to Japanese that falls in the category of what is considered good science (systematic reviews) I would be keen to check it out!
A big problem with actual academic work on language learning is that the vast majority of it falls within the category of case series or case reports, which is the least reliable form of research behind expert opinion. Basically, people that want to know about a specific phenomenon interview people who have been through said thing, and then the researcher extrapolates all the data even though they may have never even learned a second language themselves. Case reports are near the bottom of the barrel because they rely on people telling the truth, and people actually even remembering how they did X at Y time.
The way people learn languages also greatly changes based on what language they started with and what language they are going to. This conflates a lot of smaller problems and creates new problems where they may not even have existed for people going between two similar languages.
You are exactly right. The structure itself is first introduced in ใใใ (JLPT N4) | Bunpro โ Japanese Grammar Explained. This is before any other mention of ใใ, and assumes that the student already knows how ใซ works with nouns. In this way, ใใใ is the first introduction, while ใใใซ๏ฝ etc etc keep the training wheels on for awhile before using the structure 100% freely later in N4.
The spreading out is the job of the SRS itself. The reason we introduce some things in clumps is due to them sharing a relationship. A lot of research has been done on the importance of relationship in learning and memory. Itโs basically a system of having a piece of information that can be latched onto. One of the most famous memory techniques in the world (the memory palace) tries to exploit this by creating artificial things to โlatch ontoโ.
I could talk forever about this topic 
. Basically at the end of the day, your brain is constantly fighting you and actively wants you to forget things that are unimportant. We try to combat this as much as possible by setting up exposures in a way that frontload important information in a way that it can be recognized as important.
P.S - Weโre not perfect and our order may not be perfect. But we didnโt just slap it together willy-nilly.
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Please do! If someone (such as yourself) were to write up any thoughts/ideas they have on learning Japanese โ and for me especially if it has some grounding in some science, though this is not truly necessary โ whether it be about learning in general, or Japanese in particular, or even if itโs along the lines of recent findings about how the brain works, for example, then I think that would be a really cool kind of thing to post about here. Perhaps in the Bunfire forum, or if thereโs a more appropriate forum. Something like a blog post, or just a news snippet, or maybe like a short essay or something (for those who are interested enough to write up such a thing!), I would be very interested to read about it.
For that matter, does Bunpro have anything like a blog or newsletter, or maybe a YouTube channel or podcast? Kinda like how WaniKani/Tofugu has/had?
If not, has anyone on the BP team considered something like that? It could serve as a creative outlet for authors; educational resource for readers; community building if commenting is allowed; and potentially a marketing tool (I would suggest thinking of this angle as secondary, and not primary; nobody really wants to read โforcedโ (as opposed to genuinely expressive) marketing blurbs โ at least not me)).
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Nope itโs a bingo machine, and we cannot truly question itโs wisdom. The true hero of bunpro that we all needed.
Edit:
the bingo machine is also how the reviews you are going to get are decided. DO NOT LISTEN to their lies! I am only trying to tell you the truth do not be blinded with false hoods such as SRS. The bingo machine does it all!
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Did Chat-GPT really write this? The idiom use is true blue.
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apparently โcheerful Australianโ === โSteve Irwinโ
fair dinkum
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Finally, a grammar point that makes sense
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