10/16 Major Update - Grammar/Vocab Page 3.0

Thank you for the reply,

General agreement is good, but data-driven information is king, no? I humbly think the response is dismissive (perhaps not necessarily dismissive but hurried) and the core decision making of getting things out the door needs to be considered more thoroughly. After all, what was the initial consensus before launch? To make a change that fast seemingly out of nowhere gives me the impression the team is getting content out the door asap.

It’s good to be responsive, but this is simply ridiculous in my opinion.

Like @veritas_nz mentioned, we weren’t able to put this through our beta system. Had we, it is very likely we would have received the same kind of feedback we received in this thread and would have made the same change we made today.

In this particular case we designed the sidebar based off of a left - right layout we used for a FAQ design we had done earlier, so the sidebar ended up on the left as a starting point. To be honest, everyone on the team was fairly agnostic about which side is better. We went with left and that is likely due to growing used to seeing it on the left through designing, building and testing it.

After consistent feedback in the thread (the data you mentioned) asking to have it on the right, we did some testing and discussion and agreed that the right hand side was indeed better and made the change.

I’m sure you have experienced something similar in your own programming experience where what you see over and over is what you become used to and it is only when you get a fresh set of eyes on it that helps ground and redirect your focus to see it in a new light. To that end, getting feedback from everyone here is a very valuable part of our process because we rarely have all the answers from the get go.

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This thread is less than 48 hours old, and isn’t sufficient of a sample to see what customers want. People are naturally apprehensive to change, the willingness to change the site on a dime is the concern I have. It’s important to give it time for a large percentage of users to really spend time and use the new layout. The responses to the thread that are from the first 48 hours are in the overwhelming minority of overall users and even they haven’t put enough time into the update.

In my opinion, it would have been best to wait at least one week, perhaps two, then ask the question of what people think or to see if a reoccurring concern is still addressed. It very well could be the case what was said early on was the root issue, but don’t let the “vocal minority effect” have severe influence on the future of Bunpro, as that is what this seems to me.

If the original post had along the lines of this, then it would have been the better move and would yield to hopefully more detailed and thoughtful feedback, “Hey guys, I know we released a new UI update and there’s a chance you may hate it, but we spent a good amount of thought into this layout and we think it’s pretty good. We’re going to leave it as is for the next two weeks just so you can get used to the new layout and see what you like, what you don’t like, and if you have the chance to reply to this thread after spending a good amount of time, it would be immensely helpful in us providing a user experience you deserve.”

Having the sidebar on the right makes it much more appealing to me. I think you’re right, having the sidebar on the left was sort of tripping up my eye each time I moved to a new line.
I’d still like to see more information (sorted into tabs) in the Sidebar, but I’m honestly amazed how much less attention-grabbing it is to just have the bar on the other side.

This sounds like a good way to keep notes integrated while also letting them be as long as needed. I am curious to see how notes would work in the sidebar as I rarely make any particularly long, but yes, I’d be happy with this.

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It’s better on the right, the other guy is wrong

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What kind of meaningful data do you think they could gather to decide if the column should be on the left or right side?

As you say yourself, it’s a minor change, it doesn’t warrant that much scrutiny frankly.

The rationale for the change is also obvious: in English we read from left to right and as such it makes sense to put more important info on the left where it’ll be seen first. Grammar explanations are obviously more important than SRS stats.

I wanted to ask about that, it’s a shame that it didn’t go through the beta system, if only so that we could switch back and forth between the two versions to compare and contrast.

Still, I think you’ve handled those (frequent) updates generally well so far (Android app notwithstanding :grimacing:), so I’m not complaining.

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Fantastic work, it’s these kinds of updates that really prove that my investment in lifetime was worth it :slight_smile:

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It feels way better with the side bar on the right side! Thank you for your hard work.

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I am not talking about whether or something is on the left or right, my point is on the basis of Bunpro overreacting to feedback without letting the dust settle.

To make it expressly clear what my point is: I am not focused about the specific UI change itself that Bunpro made 24 hours after launch, but rather on Bunpro’s decision-making process is what I am having fault with. If you re-read my comments of concern that was posted today with that context, I hope it becomes clearer the point i am trying to make.

I personally think the update looks good, but it’s inherently subjective and I think it would be best to wait until there’s more feedback and to not react the way they did. This could be about anything related to this update, not just the placement of boxes.

I hope my point isn’t rendered as idiotic because of misconception as I noticed this is an ongoing issue Bunpro as a company has done, in which they emphasize on reaction than proaction.

For example this comment is absolutely ridiculous and does nothing to address the core of what I am saying.

I deeply care about Bunpro and the product served and I have worked at two startups (one that has been successful, one that flopped in a big way), it’s not like I am working from a place of ignorance. The issues Bunpro is showing from the over-emphasis on being too knee jerky and the long-term ramifications it can have.

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I really don’t see what you’re seeing. If Bunpro had a bad track record of releasing changes that break everything and cause a lot of dissension within the user base I would probably have a different opinion but this hasn’t been the case so far IMO.

The devs do react quickly but generally reasonably, there’s clearly a coherent vision behind all of this, it’s not like they implement every tiny feature requested on these forums. Not having to wait for a month to have a widget move to the other side of the page is in no way a negative as far as I’m concerned, nor is it indicative of a faulty process.

Well there is one faulty process here: the fact that this change couldn’t go through a beta period to fix these small blemishes and get user feedback before it’s made available to the general population, but hopefully that won’t become the norm.

Even removing my software dev cap, just from the perspective of an end-user, I think the website improved tremendously over the past year. Because of this I trust the team to do what’s right and keep making the website better and I don’t think doomsaying is warranted just because somebody in this thread said “hey I think it would be better to move this to the right side” and the devs said “oh yeah that makes sense”.

In the end the results speak for themselves I guess. As long as I think that the website is improving I don’t really care how the sausage is made.

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Thank you for the thoughtful reply,

My point is this: when Bunpro released the UI update, just leave it as is, for at least a period of 1-2 weeks. Let people take time to digest the update, and let the feedback roll in after a reasonable period of time. I don’t find it reasonable that they issued an update, however minor it may be in 24 hours.

The reason why I think it is unreasonable, is that it undermines the original planning put into it, and makes me question how much planning was put into it in the first place if they are willing to change that fast.

Agreed. I am not sure what the technical reasons @veritas_nz mentioned, and I would love to know specifically why, as it could impact future Bunpro updates.

Agreed. @Daru @veritas_nz @Jake and whoever was directly responsible for the updates for Bunpro should be praised as it’s so much of an improvement since I started the service.

I don’t want to have a potential misconception, but I am not doomsaying, I am saying this as a very careful observer of the forums and as someone who has paid attention to what the developers have done in the past two years when it comes to updates. It’s a huge benefit to be agile, and I think they just crossed the line.

To put it in an analogy, they are putting out the fires, but they aren’t doing anything to stop the fires from existing in the first place.

That proactive VS. reactive theme is big, as the startup I worked at that failed suffered from that and left the customer base confused and overall less willing to trust because of how they quickly maneuvered. The reality is that the failed startup had zero long-term vision. They had a product that was unique, and just left it as-is until competitors ate them alive.

I don’t want to say that is what Bunpro is doing, as I am not privy to what their plans are, but the parallels should be used as it least a helpful air of caution for reactivity being a supplement for lack of a long-term vision.

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I get what you’re saying.
However, it seems to me that Bunpro has a long-term vision and is implementing appropriate changes in an effort to achieve that, so we can all sleep easy and carry on learning grammar and vocabulary :slight_smile:

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You both make a lot of good points. I think part of the concern may come from not knowing what our work environment is like, which is totally fine. What may seem like a knee-jerk reaction from the outside was actually a very short, very calm discussion within the team. Pretty much the equivalent of this -

Remember that all of the staff are users too, so we also want to use the best version of the site.

We didn’t see this as putting out a fire at all, we saw it as a guest walking into our house and saying ‘Doesn’t that couch block your window a bit? Why not put it on the other side of the lounge room?’, to which we replied ‘You know what, yeah, we’d get more morning sun that way.’ It all happened in a very calm manner on our end.

We’re all super happy that you both care about the product this much, and appreciate the debate. But as to allow as many opinions as possible, let’s make sure to also not to turn this into a back and forth.

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Hello again!

I have a small suggestion to make that I believe will enhance this great update. For those words that have a related grammar lesson (*), could there be a link to the lesson somewhere in the 詳細 section?

Thank you in advance for considering this proposal. 良い一日を

(*) For example:

  • N4 Conjunction すると and N3 lesson 1: 18/22
  • N4 Interjection そうだ and N3 lesson 1: 17/22
  • N4 Expression その為 and N3 lesson 3: 21/22
  • N4 Pre-noun Adjectival そんな and N4 lesson 5: 4/20
  • N4 Expression その頃 and N4 lesson 2: 8/17
  • N4 Conjuction それで and N4 lesson 10: 11/18
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Thank you for reaching out,

That’s absolutely valid, but it’s incredibly important to have a list of priority. For example, I log in and the very first thing I see on Bunpro is a glitch:

Tomorrow, at least in the East coast of the US as of now, is the 19th, then the 19th is displayed. This is the first thing I see and it’s a problem. I know you guys are aware and have a fix planned, but to me that should be much higher on the priority list as that’s something the customer sees immediately.

The argument can be made that focusing on the minor change, no matter how easy it was to fix, isn’t the best allocation of focus.

If you have 50,000 guests come in and you only listen to four, maybe hear the others out first would be better? As that is the point I am trying to make, it may not represent the best course of action when considered within the broader user experience. Sure the conclusion could be the same, but getting a wide enough net of a response is ultimately a better way to determine if the choice was the right call.

In interest on keeping the thread focused about feedback, this will be my last response on this thread. If anyone, user or developer wants to have a meaningful conversation about the topic, they can feel free to DM me.

Btw, when I scroll down to the Details/Examples/Resources, go to another tab or window and then back the tab with the reviews, the page automatically scrolls up to the top. Is that intended behaviour? Can I turn it off?

Thanks for the feedback!

Not intended! Definitely a bug.
I can’t replicate it on my end though, even in stinky 'ol Firefox.
Just to confirm, this is on the regular /reviews page right? When you’re checking the information underneath the Quiz page?
Are you wrapping up? Does it happen for both Grammar/Vocab?

Any details would be appreciated!
Also from @rdennison7 if you have any too :sunglasses:

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Yes, the regular /reviews page.

I enter my answer, press F to open the details, go to another tab, go back to reviews, auto-scroll happens.
It does not happen if I click the “Show info” button on the screen. Neither when I click around on the screen and then press F or scroll down to the details.

So only while this typing bar is in focus. Happens in wrap-up too.
image

I use Chrome. I don’t do vocab reviews, so haven’t tested there.

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Them fighting words

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I might be in the minority, but so far I haven’t added notes while studying. Just a thought, but maybe you can poll users before making another big change?

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I kinda agree with the polls thing but only because I like taking polls♪⁠~⁠(⁠´⁠ε⁠`⁠ ⁠)

not sure what your note taking has to do with it tho, you can’t even see that section if there’s no notes right?

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