¿Cómo se diría ... en español?

Buenos días,

Hoy quería hacer una entrada relativa a este punto gramatical:

真(っ) (Completely, Exactly, Right).

De pequeño, usábamos en broma expresiones como ‘totieso’, ‘torrojo’ o ‘tolmedio’ para referirnos a ir todo seguido (真っ直ぐ), algo completamente rojo (真っ赤) o estar justo en el centro (真ん中).

Todas ellas llevan ‘to’ como apócope de ‘todo’ al principio, exactamente del mismo modo que 真(っ) en japonés y con correspondencia literal del ‘completely’ que indica el punto gramatical como traducción al inglés.

Este paralelismo me ha ayudado a integrar de forma natural el uso de 真(っ).

粗品ですが、どうぞ。

Que tengáis un buen domingo.

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¡Hola!

Al hilo de un libro que estoy leyendo, he caído en la cuenta de algo que quería dejar aquí reflejado por si puede ser de utilidad.

Se trata del verbo 分かる y su reflejo en español. 分かる es un verbo intransitivo (自動詞), por lo cual 何々分かる no es gramaticalmente correcto, sino que es 何々分かる. Sin embargo, nosotros lo conceptualizamos como ‘comprender/entender algo’ cuando en realidad es ‘algo es comprensible/entendible’.

(De hecho, la construcción completa sería 私何々分かる (algo es comprensible para mí) y no 私何々分かる.)

Así, propongo recurrir al verbo ‘resultar’ como mejor forma de recoger la esencia de 分かる, mediante el uso de la expresión ‘resultar comprensible’. 私何々分かる sería entonces ‘algo me resulta comprensible’.

(De hecho nº 2, este verbo también es útil a la hora de concebir con más fidelidad palabras que rigen como 好き (resultar agradable), 欲しい (resultar deseable),…)

Que tengáis un buen día.

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Muy bien! Me gusta esta entrada.

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Tiene muchísimo sentido eso que dices, usar “resultar comprensible” en lugar de comprender. Muchas gracias.

Yo quería añadir el punto としては que siempre me ha costado mucho comprender, pero parece que ya lo tengo.

Me sirve traducirrlo por PARA SER … X, y uso la regla nemotécnica:
PARA SER una TOSHTADA, está bastante rica con la mermelada.

Pero también, en algunos ejemplos, se usaría COMO en el contexto de “COMO TOSHTAda, no está nada mal”

(“Como idea, es buena, pero en la práctica es difícil” - アイデアとしてはいいが、実現するのは難むずかしい。)

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Hola,

Tus reglas nemotécnicas son siempre muy buenas. Desde luego que las TOSHTAdas son difíciles de dominar. Yo las lío con los にしてもにしては… (ni sistemo ni sin tregua, llamaría a estos, pero no se me ocurre una buena regla que asociarles).

Muchas gracias y buen día

woah, thats actually really funny, i didnt even know japenese was faster then spanish

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Yo he tratando de aprender ambos idiomas—español y japonés—porque a menudo tengo estudiantes que son hablantes nativos. Incluso esta mañana, ¡yo actualmente usé ambos idiomas con estudiantes diferentes durante la misma clase! Claro que no necesito aprender sus lenguas para hacer mi trabajo, pero creo que es un gesto de buena voluntad. Me gusta demostrar que estoy dispuesto a encontrar a medio camino en cuanto a las barreras de comunicación.

Es un momento de enseñanza también. Estudiantes deben ver su maestro cuándo está practicando y aprendiendo… ¡y fallando! Yo sé tengo unos problemas con mi acento. Hasta los maestros perseveran.

Siempre me ha parecido interesante que los dos idiomas usan casi las vocales idéndicas. ¡Es una casualidad útil!

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i actually really love that, you are a great teacher :blush:

especially for someone like me, I am a native spanish speaker, well kind of. (its my mother tongue) but I stopped speaking spanish less and less as I went to an american school so now I just can understand what people say and and can read spanish but, I’m really bad at writing since I don’t understand all the grammar rules :sweat: I literally have to reteach myself spanish in my spanish class :sob: so now I try to learn japenese by hearing the spanish definition of the word so I can train both my spanish and japenese :3 I actually think that its a really good system tbh.

oh and sorry for my english grammar, what I mean is, writing without the periods and stuff, that’s just kinda how I write when I’m being casual and when I don’t need to be formal or like don’t need to write a essay for school LOL

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(Please excuse my English - I don’t speak Spanish)

Japanese has a very fast “syllables per second” count just due to the sound system where it is pretty much always consonant+vowel pairs with occasional longer vowel sounds or a final ん. This doesn’t mean that Japanese conveys more information in the same amount of time though. The study I’ve seen that measured “information per [time]” found English to convey more information in less time despite being a “slower” language (in terms of syllables per second) however the study was pretty bad in my opinion as they used the same text translated into all the languages tested but only a single text. There is a clear problem here given that the way of phrasing something or the formal grammar used in a written text could happen to be “slower” for that specific text but not in general or not for casual speech, etc. It’s pretty clear without thinking too hard that some things can be conveyed much faster in Japanese than in English or Spanish and other things may be slower.

Interestingly whenever I broach this topic with Japanese people they tend to believe Japanese is slow and clear precisely due to the consonant+vowel pairs giving quite clear delineations between “syllables” and they find English to be very “fast” because of the lack of clear delineation (from their perspective).

My opinion is that when learning a language it will always sound “fast” whilst you don’t understand it properly and these kind of studies about speed don’t tell us anything valuable as learners.


Perhaps also relevant to this thread, it is not uncommon to hear Japanese people claim Spanish has “easy” pronunciation for Japanese speakers (and vice versa) but the few times I’ve heard Japanese people speak Spanish they’ve had a noticeable Japanese accent and the only time I’ve heard Spanish speakers speak Japanese they’ve had a very strong Spanish accent, although admittedly they were clearly beginners in both cases. The intonation (pitch accent) and the vowel sounds were the main culprits in both cases which is also normally the same issue native English speakers have.

(also feel free to reply to this comment in Spanish if you want to continue the discussion - I don’t want to accidentally turn this into an English thread, sorry!)

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For me, as a native Spanish speaker, Japanese pronunciation (and just pronunciation) is way easier than English pronunciation. Also, I have heard Japanese people speaking Spanish with a better accent than most English native speakers. My Japanese tutors always mention my pronunciation being better than most (even those who admit that my grammar and vocabulary are not great :rofl:). It’s not perfect, of course, but I do think we share many sounds and that makes it easier compared to other languages like English.

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Hi! ¡Bienvenido! It is a pleasure having you in the topic.

(we will excuse your English, we won’t excuse your French, though! :grin: )

Indeed, Spanish vocal system is simple and solid, which turns it difficult for us to grab the manifold vocal sound system other languages have. As for English, whenever this topic comes by, I can’t help but remember the scene in My Fair Lady where Henry Higgins shows in public at Eliza Doolittle expense that ‘a’ is not ‘a’ but ‘aaeaoaaàäëâoa’.

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One of my Japanese friends has a really good Spanish (Dominican) accent. Her grammar is not great, but she can hold a conversation really well. She’s been studying Spanish for around 4 years though.

I have another friend whom I met through the aforementioned one, and while she only has months learning Spanish, her pronunciation already sounds better than a lot of English speakers with way more time studying than her.

From personal experience, as well as from listening to other Japanese people I hear on YouTube, it seems Spanish is an easy language for them to pick up and sound natural.

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Very interesting guys, I appreciate the insight. It is so rare for westerners to become fluent in Japanese regardless of their native language so although I’ve met numerous westerners who are conversational in Japanese I don’t think I have ever met one who is (what I would consider) fully fluent so it is always really hard to judge these kind of broad statements about how “easy” certain aspects are or aren’t for different people in my experience so hearing your experiences is quite interesting. I do suspect it has to be true that basic Japanese pronunciation is easier for native Spanish speakers but intonation (pitch accent) must surely be difficult still?

Very interesting. I really wish I knew a native Spanish speaker here who is fluent in Japanese so I could have an informed opinion the other way. I also couldn’t help but imagine a classic redfaced beerbellied Englishman in Magaluf asking for “dos beeros and uno fish and chips, por favor” when I read this (笑)

Reminds me of this scene from Hail, Caesar! - even Americans struggle with English :wink:

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That’s probably fair to say. I haven’t studied pitch accent yet, so I can’t say for sure. I’d like to hear more from others on this topic. I just try to copy the native accent, but when you are struggling to say what you want to say, it’s difficult to focus on getting the accent right on top of everything else.

The difference for me is that I know that no matter how hard I try, I will always experience misunderstandings because of my pronunciation of certain words (or combination of words) in English. I have studied the language for many years, I have a C2 certificate, my husband is a native speaker, I live in the US, and I make an effort to get the sounds right (I’m happy to get my husband to correct me and repeat after him like a toddler). I wouldn’t say that my pronunciation is bad at this point, but taking into consideration all the effort that I put into it, it leaves a lot to be desired. And again, I don’t believe that my pronunciation is perfect in Japanese, but for the most part, the other person can understand what I’m saying if I’m using the right words and grammar, which is not always the case when I speak in English.

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The problem I’ve noticed with English is that vowels are hard to pronounce, as opposed to the Spanish ones, which are much more flat in their pronunciation. Because of this I feel like Spanish has to be one of the easiest languages to read. Not only is the pronunciation less chaotic than in English, but we also include the accents for each word in our writing (and the times you don’t see the accent being marked is because we have rules that already take care of the pronunciations of those words). We literally give all of the information needed to correctly pronounce words and interpret phrases within the sentence, which is not something that can be said about English nor Japanese.

At least for Spanish speakers I know that the different “e” sounds in words like “Beach” and “Bitch”, or “Sheet” and “Shit”, are hard to pronounce correctly until you really drill them, which a lot of people don’t bother with and thus they end up keeping a strong accent. The same is true for other sounds in English that are not in the Spanish language, and viceversa for English speakers who are learning Spanish. I can’t say that my accent is completely gone, but it’s definitely WAY better than how it used to be before I moved to the States around 26 years ago. Damn I’m old, lol.

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Vale pero… ¿cómo se diría todo esto en español?
:wink:

¡Las reglas de acentuación! ¡Palabras agudas, llanas y esdrújulas, los diptongos, los triptongos, los hiatos…! La tilde diacrítica… Todos ellos quebraderos de cabeza para los que aprenden nuestra lengua.

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While I’m here, since I’m a college professor, a quick question: how do you think I should address my students who are older than me, tú or usted?

¡Vaya, buena pregunta!

Si enseñas a españoles, el uso de usted es cada vez menos habitual y puede quedar raro, no mal pero sí un poco “viejuno” (old school). Aunque, siendo profesor universitario, no queda tan fuera de lugar, depende realmente de la relación que quieras establecer con tus alumnos, más cercana () o más distante (usted). También depende de si quieres mostrar respeto o deferencia hacia los alumnos mayores (usted).

Para el uso de usted en Latinoamérica, dejo la palabra a otras personas.

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“El Español es más fácil de leer que el Inglés, lol.”

Pero en serio, no estoy diciendo que el Español no es difícil de aprender, sino solo estaba refiriéndome a su lectura. Tienes que admitir que con todo eso que mencionas, el Inglés está REPLETO de excepciones en cuanto a su lectura/pronunciación.

Lo que hace al Español difícil de aprender tiene que ver más con la gramática que otra cosa. Ahí si te doy toda la razón.

Hablando de gramática, la mentira más grande que te dicen cuando empiezas a aprender Japonés es que solo tiene dos conjugaciones (Presente/Futuro y Pasado). Mentiras! El Japonés (14) tienes casi la misma cantidad de conjugaciones que el Español (16).

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Yo estoy más o menos de acuerdo con Pablo, excepto que pienso que “usted” no es una palabra pasada de moda (old school). Yo vengo originalmente de la República Dominicana y en mi país “usted” se utiliza cuando no conoces a una persona que es major de edad, y/o cuando quieres demostrar respeto. Ya después que uno está familiarizado con esa persona, entonces se puede utilizar “tú”. Todo depende de la situación.

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