Concern over when Bunpro will be finished (EDIT: See the response by Mrnoone)

Bunpro
#1

When I started using Bunpro back when it first released I was barely N4 and so since the site wasn’t complete it wasn’t really a big deal for me. I always thought by the time I reached the higher levels it’d all be ready.

Well I’m just now finishing my N1 textbook and intending to take N1 mid next year but still the N1 bunpro course is barely past a quarter done. I’m not too fussed because I’m fine to use alternative routes but I’m more concerned because I’m a big proponent of Bunpro, I recommend it to anyone looking to study Japanese but I can’t recommend it in good faith if I feel like it’s on the cusp of being abandoned.

If we take the rate of grammar point development since the start of N1 lesson 2 to now then in more than 4 months there have been 25 new grammar points added. Taking the assumption that there will 220 N1 points when completed that means it will be almost 2 and a half years from the creation of this post until N1 is complete. In that time with dedication you could go from no Japanese knowledge to legitimately N1 yourself.

Of course I don’t know what’s going on behind the scenes and there could be new grammar points around the corner, I have asked in the past to no answer on what the future looks like N1 Update! - August 26, 2020

Are we able to get some more information on the future roadmap of bunpro?

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#2

@Litharrale
Don’t worry!
I think we will finish N1 with 6 sentences per grammar point by February-March of 2021 :+1:

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#3

Even in its current state, it’s well worth the money. I don’t know of any other Japanese grammar SRS sites and would have gladly paid double.

Also, continuing to use the SRS even after passing N1 will be highly effective in solidifying your retention of the grammar points.

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#4

Awesome! That’s even faster than I expected, thanks for the answer

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#5

It’s amazing that you guys will have this done with before the next JLPT session (July 2021 at least here in Italy and many other countries that cancelled both of the 2020 exams). Bunpro has been in my studies since I was mid-N4 and if it helps me along all the way to N1 and helps me pass it I’ll be incredibly grateful and even more glad I purchased it.

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#6

My only concern is that Bunpro doesn’t teach recognition, only production… Immediate argument to that always tends to be “if you can produce - you can recognize” but that is a very naive thinking. For many grammar points people are just conditioned to respond via “english cue -> japanese phrase” which is far from useful.

I really wish BP team can consider adding another form of reviews, where we are given a japanese sentence and we need to show our understanding of a particular highlighted grammar point or sentence as a whole.

In fact, even if it’s a simple form of showing us a particular sentence and asking “do you understand this?” and then presenting a translation which you either mark as “yup, my understanding was correct” or mark it as wrong. Even that trivial review format would go a long way towards helping with understanding, rather than only production. But filling in a translation for a highlighted japanese phrase in a sentence would work even better.

Can someone from BP team at least tell us if something like that is even considered? And if so - any ETA would be great.

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#7

@Kuromaku

This is definitely something that we have been talking about. We would like to implement a variety of different review options in the future. We want to start by incorporating more and more Japanese into hints and notes that appear in higher-level grammar points.

Right now, our main focus is on improving the overall performance of the site (we are still trying to figure out why some users are experiencing latency issues while others are not) and expanding upon and adding new grammar, mainly N1. Once we believe we have added a sufficient amount of content and Bunpro is running as smoothly and bug-free as possible, we will have time to devote to alternative review options.

As far as providing any sort of ETA, as @mrnoone suggested, we hope to have all of the N1 grammar points implemented within the first quarter of 2021. We hope to have any performance issues and bugs squashed much sooner than that. Thank you for all of your feedback, suggestions, and questions. Cheers!

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#8

I’ve made recognition flash cards for every new lesson I do on BunPro since last year. I did N3 and I’m about halfway on N2. It’s really not that hard, just a few seconds of copy/pasting all the relevant info I want (sample if interested). I was thinking of doing something similar with listening comprehension since Asher & Haruna generously shared audio. I realized many grammar point are in Kitsun’s dictionary so can literally just do two clicks for an info rich card (but I want the sentence and notes from BP though).

The issue with decks is that they really can’t be shared in the community as the translations are BP’s intellectually property and anyone without an account could access. An alternate recognition platform akin to Kaniwani where a public API could be used…but last I heard most of the content is still private. I vote to call it PunBro if anyone would be ambitious enough to create it someday. I think these are the most realistic options given the roadmap listed above.

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#9

I hope they include bonus Japanese puns to study. :3

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#10

I agree 100% with this, but as much as recognition would be nice, you can do it yourself in books. I learn almost exclusively via books now as I believe the opposite of ‘if you can produce you can recognize’. Production NEEDS confident recognition as a prerequisite. This is my personal experience with language learning, but everyone is different. production before confident recognition is like learning to run before crawling.
Bunpro is great to get a feel for the grammar, the rest can be done in books… or Japanese subtitled shows… books are much better though.

A strategy you might like that I use, mine sentences off Weblio. It’s designed for Japanese people, so all the Japanese sentences are correct and there are hundreds of examples for each point. Load them into a script reader on shuffle and just listen. The benefit of a language like Japanese is that ‘machine audio’ is actually pitch perfect nearly 100% of the time.

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#11

Thanks for the tip on Weblio, Asher, great idea. Their sentences do look really high quality and there are a ton of them.

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#12

Can you give a more detailed explanation of your schedule?

In the past I also asked about N1 last year and was given a vague answer. I’m going to be taking N1 again this December and I’d like to know how many grammr points you think will be on BP by then.

#13

Another good idea could be to just search in google / bing - “grammar point + jlpt " or “grammar point + 文法” . Like " あげく 文法” to get some Japanese websites / videos which explain the grammar point in Japanese + more sentences.
I have been doing it like this for a while and I’m really happy with it. :slight_smile:

#14

@Pushindawood @mrnoone I’m still waiting on a response.

#15

@lopicake

We apologize for the late reply. We are always very hesitant about sharing dates and plans when there are so many variables involved.

At our current rate, we’ve been managing about 5-10 grammar points a month, which would put us at only about 10-15 more grammar points by the December test. We are quickly realizing that it might be difficult to reach the goal of completing N1 by March of next year. That being said, that is still the goal that we are striving for.

What variables? Why is it taking longer than expected?

・We are ordering each grammar point due to frequency of use and we are writing the sentences so that they include as many contexts, scenarios, and nuances as possible. Because of this, sometimes each sentence requires its own breakdown due to the number of nuances a grammar point can carry or if it is only used in a specific context.

・As we write new sentences, we realize that some grammar points would benefit from being split into two or more instances which in turn changes the entire layout of N1, where we place the grammar points, and how we write sentences so that one grammar point does not use unfamiliar grammar or fails to build off of previously learned material.

These are issues that were difficult to predict before we really dove into N1.

There are quite a few other things that have come up that we were not expecting, the big one obviously being COVID-19 and how it affects the way we work and interact together as a team. For these reasons, we do not like to give away too many details for fear of not meeting expectations. We will do our very best to get 15 new grammar points up by the December test, but this number is subject to change.

Thank you for your continued patience. Cheers.

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#16

I don’t think it should be expected of you to give us a detailed breakdown of when the grammar points get released. It’s much smarter and honest to say ‘this is our broad goal to be met by Spring/Summer of 2021’ as you guys have done. I prefer you having enough flexibility to accommodate for any personal circumstances as well as the naturally unpredictable nature of the creative process.
I’m not familiar at all with your workflow but would it be wrong to assume that providing the example sentences (setting correct answers, hints, suggestions for somewhat close answers, discerning different meanings of the same grammar point, etc…) is the most time-consuming part of the process?
As such, is there any chance you would consider some kind of ‘pre-release’ or ‘early access’ for grammar points which includes only the resource links and very brief explanation with the possibility of using the self-study feature? (I’m assuming this is the easier/less time-consuming part of your work but I could be wrong) By the time we’re studying N1, most of us are big enough boys/girls/other to be able to self study, after all.
I’m in no rush for something like this. At my pace I won’t be done with the current amount of material until February/March. And honestly, as I write, I would hate to be the project manager in charge of implementing this (having to address questions/complaints about the early access whilst simultaneously trying to get ahead in development of the final grammar points sounds chaotic). But maybe, if there is some practical enough way to do this (I would think it smart to have it be an opt-in program with whatever disclaimers may be necessary), then it could serve to calm the folks who are studying on a tighter schedule and maybe even lay some pressure off your team.

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#17

@TheSuicidalMuffin Thank you for your reply!

Yes, the work that goes on behind the scenes definitely requires a great deal of attention. Even when we feel confident that we have covered all of our bases, we often find ourselves adding alternate answers or answers that throw hints/warnings months after we have added a grammar point. The feedback and suggestions that we receive from everyone help us expand on these answers and they give us ideas on how to improve explanations. This is why it is so hard to answer when something will be “done” because we are constantly fleshing out the content that is currently available, while also adding new material.

Setting up a pre-release version of grammar points might be a bit tricky as they will essentially sit as placeholders for grammar points that we will be adding in the future. The order in which they are added may change or we might decide to break the grammar point down into smaller parts which would mean that the study questions that you created for a particular grammar point may no longer be associated with it when we release the “final” version of it. If we can find a way to do this intuitively and in a way that would only be an opt-in option, we will let you know. Right now, it does not look like we can easily implement it without it potentially getting messy in the future. We certainly appreciate the suggestion!

We might be able to set something up that would at least give you a list of the N1 grammar that we intend to add, in the order that we intend, the pages of textbooks where you can find them, and the online resources we intend to pair them with. We will see what we can do. Cheers!

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#18

The effects of C19 are really unprecedented, at least for this generation so not surprising it impacts BP as well. I can see both sides here. On one hand, I think users put forth alot suggestions on the message boards to improve the interface that impact all users that are not simple fixes and are likely quite time consuming. Certainly curating the content doesn’t not appear to be easy either. But a big victory was the collab + continued effort to add audio which is very much appreciated along with any another updates that are possible.

On the other hand, though N1 is probably the least used module, it’s arguably the most important. For many this test influences jobs/residency/future so I can see the urgency to have this content available for this difficult exam (not to mention a relatively low pass rate ~30%)

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