よつばと discussion (Beginner) April 2024

Book Clubs
#264

It indicates that the え is voiced or “muddied” (濁点 (だくてん), the two dots, means like “voicing mark(s)”) so kind of like the え sound is strained and you can kind of hear the throat gurgle or scratch or strain. For reference, 連濁 (れんだく) refers to so-called “sequential voicing” as the kanji suggest. So it is used for voicing within a word where a sound would normally not be voiced, not just for general voicing. Other related words include 濁音, 半濁点, 濁る, and 鼻濁音. You obviously don’t need to know any of these terms though.

Here is an example. Here is another example. Here is a third example.

On this topic, you may also enjoy this little lad: ゑ゙

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#265

except for おまかいですが in page 77.

it’s probably doesn’t concern 魔界 (…) おまかいですが is a mistaken word the child made and the correct one is kind of “何もお構いできませんが” (なにもおかまいできませんが) :“I think I can’t take care of you enough.”

I’m struggling with this as well.
as you said, this seems to be a misspelled word.
お構い ( おかまい) as a word itself means “entertainment; hospitality​”

In context I think よつばちゃん says both parts of an expected conversation with a guest (?):
どうぞおあがりたまえ！ Please come in! (from the host perspective)
お構い ですが I’m sorry to bother you (from the guest perspective)

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#266

Had to skip out on reading yesterday so we’re back with force today :muscle:

Read through pg. 73

Summary

そっとしておこう - the usage of the ておく form here confused me a bit but gave me an opportunity to reread the grammar explanation here on bunpro, I believe this is the nuance of ‘to leave something alone’ :kissing_smiling_eyes:

Yotsuba on pg. 69 is me with kanji every day.

Pg. 70 : のきれいじゃない方だ - “The not pretty one!”

I know that I know the reason why that の is there, but I can’t for the life of me recall what that reason is. It’s a grammar point that I can’t seem to recall for the moment, I’m gonna keep thinking about it but I’ll just leave this here as my writeup for the day hehe

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#267

Feeling pretty good on ch.2 here! only a couple pages left. Lots and lots of stuff to sink your teeth into as well

Thoughts/Questions

だからね？あれは用もないのに押しちゃダメのよ？ Struggling a bit to figure out the nuance of the だからね? looking at jisho it seems like the idea might be “Like I said”, signalling that they were talking before this panel, but then I don’t really understand the question mark.

とりあえず、よつばちゃんち行こうか - I’m assuming this is a shortened form of うち. I’m also assuming it’s colloquial but not sure.

お上りたまえ, おかまいですが - The humor of this scene is difficult to pick up, it’s playing on a lot of cultural & grammatical differences that are not immediately apparent.

Apparently, the usage of 給え here is technically wrong or at least sounds outdated/stuffy? From what I could find. And already discussed, but おかまいですが is like impossible to decode without already knowing the other form lol.

When might somebody use the 何もお構い出来ませんが？

Also, Yotsuba telling fuuka that her drawing sucks was hilarious, kids truly do say the darndest things

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#268

think of だから as just a singular phrase in this case when at the start of a sentence meaning ‘like I said’ I told you already’. As a conjunction it means ‘so, therefore, accordingly, consequently’.

Yes ’ ん家(ち)’ just is slang for ‘(whoever’s) house’. Shorter form of 〜のうち

Also, ‘お構い’ (おかまい) means entertainment/hospitality for a guest which I think is the context used here

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#269

Thanks for this! That definitely helps.

However, are you certain about the のうち thing? The sentence seems to be よつばちゃん and then ち, just sort of omitting the particle. Unless doubling up sounds where the ん in ちゃん could also count as the shortening for のうち is possible?

Pg. 80-85

Nothing too confusing on these pages!

I understand the meaning of Asagi’s 来てごらん but I wondered why she was using honorific language with her little sister.

N3文法　〜てごらん｜日本語教師のまる得

This is a supplementary source I found and seems to indicate that this is actually primarily used with parents to children (or perhaps in this case, older siblings to younger siblings)

That might be worth adding to the bunpro grammar page if the team thinks that’s an apt explanation :3

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#270

yeah it seems the ん doubles up due to the ちゃん

#271

Hi!

Did also finish chapter 2. Boy, is のきれいな方 mean!

Already started chapter 3 ‘地球温暖化’. クーラーが最悪だろうかなぁー

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#272

That part was very funny lol.

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#273

Pg. 75

あれは用もないのに押しちゃだめなのよ?

Hello, I’m having a bit of trouble with this sentence, what’s the usage of のに here? Is it a case where it sounds natural in Japanese but doesn’t translate properly to English? The way I’m understanding it is ‘There’s no need, so it’s no good to push it’ but if translating literally it’s something like ‘Even though there’s no need, it’s no good to push it.’ which doesn’t make much sense to me.

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#274

Hopefully this isn’t too off topic but here’s a panel from Yu-Gi-Oh 3 With pretty much the same structure, 'ぼくの家の店´ becomes '僕んちの店’ there are some times when rules get ‘broken’ because it’s easier to say out loud and I believe this construction is one of those times.

bokunchi
bokunchi345×787 156 KB

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#275

Lol, I just finished chapter 1. Still plodding along at my own pace.

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#276

I caught up after a few days away from the book, finished chapter two and read the first 10 pages of chapter 3. I probably will read another larger batch towards the weekend.
There were a few things where I didn’t get all the words or the exact grammar being used (most of which were addressed in this thread), but I mostly got the gist of it. I’m really enjoying the manga so far, and the Bunpro deck is really helpful.

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#277

Thank you for the extra example! Although, my major issue was not with the shortening of のうち but moreso the double usage of ん haha.

I got curious about it actually and looked up some other examples of ちゃん家 and the vast majority of search results that came up were for restaurants that had that in their name! If not a common turn of phrase, it at the very least is something that people would be used to seeing :star_struck:

Pg. 86-91

Woooo we’re on ch. 3! Nothing really confusing as far as grammar here, mostly just unfamiliar vocab.

Fuuka’s usage of formal language will be the death of me :tired_face:.

I feel like かっこ悪い is a phrase I should keep in the back of my mind, could be very useful for embarassing situations haha.

意外といいやつだ - I got a little hung up on what the hell と was doing here, but 意外と is apparently just a synonym for 意外に and I’m gonna leave it at that >:3

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#278

You can find this usage in title of the popular anime あたしンち (あたしのうち). The の gets squished to ん but if a name ends in ん then you can’t say double ん so it gets errrr double squished… I am sure you’ve understood it by now though.

かっこいい (bad ending)

I won’t go deeply into this but と is being used in its quotative capacity to describe the way in which something is or does something. Probably you wouldn’t notice this usage for certain オノマトペ (e.g., じっと見る) as it makes some sense for an オノマトペ to be “quoted” but と can actually be used with any phrase at all. I would invite you to consider what the word ちょっと actually is and how it functions. There is extensive discussion about に vs と (the issue specific to your moment of pause) online if you want to look into it further. You are right that 意外と is basically a fixed phrase though.

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#279

Does this relate to Notes 3 & 5 for と4 (P480) in A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar? Note 5 refers to Section 8 in the characteristics section of the book which contains the following:

Each sound symbolism is an adverb associated with a specific verb. The adverb is normally followed by the quote marker to, because the sound symbolism is perceived as quotation.

Would that mean that ちょっと, while we think of it as a standalone word, is actually the adverb ちょい followed by the standard と particle?

This would mean you could take any onomatopoeia (e.g. ゆっくり) and “quote” it, right?

That would make something like 「ゆっくりと歩く。」grammatically correct, but I can’t see why you’d do so over simply leaving the と out and directly attaching the adverb to the verb.

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#280

I was hoping someone would explain this as that sentence makes perfect sense to me and I cannot even tell why. I remember having a bit of trouble with のに in the past, but that trouble seems to have gradually went away.

Anyway, this usage of のに is pretty much always emotionally charged one way or another, which is what I think is the focus here. She could say 用もないから instead, but that would put all the focus on the single reason why you don’t push that button, but I think she just wants to express her disappointment more than anything. から and ので don’t carry much emotional charge.

Interestingly the same question was asked on Wanikani with the only answer that I found here: よつばと！Vol 1 Discussion Thread (Beginner's Book Club) - #621 by Kazzeon - Book Clubs - WaniKani Community

I also found this: 🆚What is the difference between "から" and "ので" and "のに" ? "から" vs "ので" vs "のに" ? | HiNative

And Tofugu has a pretty nice article about のに that I think covers all the bases, at least as far as I can recall: Conjunctive Particle のに: For Expressing Surprise / Frustration

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#281

Hey, long time no check in. I wasn’t able to get much reading done since last Thursday, so I’ve fallen a bit behind. Considering the fact that I’ve got an infant at home, I think I should aim to have the week’s chapter finished by the Friday of each week. I got up to page 75 yesterday. I’m trying to get caught up in time to finish Chapter 3 this friday.

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#282

I interpreted the “用もないのに押し(て)” as its own block, “Pressing (the button) for no reason”, so のに would have the regular meaning of “even though (there’s no reason to press)”.
I’m a bit more unsure what the あれ at the beginning of the sentence was referring to. Maybe just the general “thing/concept” of their previous conversation that she’s also referring to with the だから… (I may not be making sense here, sorry :D)
Anyway, I’m ending up with something like “So that’s why you must not -ring the door bell for no reason-, right?” for those lines.

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#283

Not sure if this is what you mean, but あれは refers simply to the button - “don’t press that”.

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