ている② - Grammar Discussion

state of being
has (have) done
is

Structure

  • Verb[ ] + いる

:warning: You may come across verb [て] + て (来てて). This is the て-form of ている - 来ていて with い omitted.

When ている is used with a verb that expresses a change that happens within a moment, it indicates a state of being that is the result of the realization of that verb.

Example: 怒る (to get angry) → realization (got angry) → 怒っている (to be mad/to be in a state of anger) not “to be getting mad.”

As you can see, the verb in dictionary form expresses the starting moment, and ている expresses the result and current state.

View on Bunpro

This is one topic that I still have trouble with. It seems inconsistent to me. E.g.

  • 知る: to get to know; 知っている: to know; 知らない: to not know
  • 太る: to get fat; 太っている: to be fat; 太っていない: to not be fat

Why is the first case using the normal non-past form for negatives, and the second is using ている?

P.S. お前はもう死んでる。 :point_left::grin::point_left:

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@max99x Hey! Unfortunately, 知る is riddled with curiosities like this. This answer gives an in-depth explanation, comparing it to other verbs. You can find 知っていない being used with と to connect other sentences, as pointed out here, but it is better to stick with 知らない in the majority of situations where you are asked if you know something or not. 知らない is just one of many exceptions that can only be fully grasped through exposure and practice. Hope this helps. Cheers!

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Thanks. I’m used to 知らない, but I didn’t realize it was the exception and regular usage of negated state of being ている is the normal ていない. That makes it easier.

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Hey :partying_face:
I have changed the nuance, to be more informative. :+1:

By the way, the idea behind this sentence was actually to teach about 知らない being an exception :+1:

Cheers!

:sunglasses::+1:

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What is どうならんで, expressing here? It also seems this sentence is written differently in reviews compared to the grammar point page

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I am not sure what happened here. It looks like part of the answer got somehow combined with どうして. どうして (as seen in the example sentence) is correct. I have corrected the review question. Cheers!

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Perhaps this is a question with an obvious answer, but I’m just looking for a little human feedback to make sure I understand things correctly.

The specific example I tripped up on:

電車(でんしゃ)は東京(とうきょう)に行(い)っ ています

The train is in Tokyo. (The train has gone to Tokyo and is there.)

[Like a previous example, this sentence can be interpreted as “The train is going to Tokyo.”]

Plus the Meaning note for some context:

[When ている is used with a verb that expresses a change that happens within a moment, it indicates a state of being that is the result of the realization of that verb.
Example: 怒る (to get angry) → realization (got angry) → 怒っている (to be mad/to be in a state of anger) not “to be getting mad”
As you can see, the verb in dictionary form expresses the starting moment, and ている expresses the result and current state.]

I mistakenly answered: いってある. Which, if I had made it polite as I was supposed to, would have been: いってあります. Which is still incorrect, but at least it would have been ‘more correct’ :sweat_smile:.

My question is this:
Is the ‘point’ of this grammar point specifically that てある (or てあります) is not the correct way to express continued-state in this context, because the verbs are about instantaneous change (starting moment), so the correct way to express continued state is with ている instead?

Or, am I actually misunderstanding てある also, and it doesn’t actually express continued-state in precisely the way that I was imagining it did? (In fact, I just woke up, so I’m still a tiny bit groggy on my memory of these distinctions; at least, that’s my story, and I’m sticking with it! :sweat_smile:)

Any tips/suggestions on how I could be thinking about this mistakenly, and how I might better remember/understand how and when to use てある instead of ている, and vice versa? Is this distinction already covered by existing grammar points, and I’m just having fuzzy recollection, perhaps (probably?)? … :thinking:

And, a minor note/issue/question, @Pushindawood:
In the Examples section, the specific example sentence’s note is as I quoted above, namely:

“[Like a previous example, this sentence can be interpreted as “The train is going to Tokyo.”]”

But when I was actually presented with the question for review, the More hint actually only says:

“[This sentence can be interpreted as “The train is going to Tokyo.”]”.

Is this as it was intended to be, or is there an unintentional mismatch between the two hints/notes here?

It does actually make sense that the ‘previous example’ part would be omitted during an actual review, but I’m just curious, since I kind of would have expected that the identical text would be used in both places. Mightn’t that sometimes make it so you have to make any updates to hints/notes in two different places?

Context: From my programming days, I’m used to avoiding duplicated data and/or code as scrupulously as possible: the so-called ‘copy pasta’ curse, where copying and pasting stuff generally leads to ‘spaghetti code’ (hence the ‘pasta’ pun :wink:).

But maybe it was a deliberate decision to allow the hints to be different in both places, since they are being seen in two somewhat different contexts?

Just curious how it was/is intended to work. :thinking: Cheers! :grin:

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It’s not about how instantaneous the change was but about intention. てある expresses a continuing state that has been brought about by someone. This grammar is used with transitive verbs, of which 行く isn’t one.

This link covers the differences: http://maggiesensei.com/2014/09/04/how-to-use-〜てある-te-aru/

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@wct
Very good question! :star_struck:

It is like @nekoyama says, the てある implies that something has been operated (object) and the result remains. It is used with transitive verbs therefore implies someone’s action.

However, 行く is not a transitive verb (nothing is operated) so we cannot use it with てある construction.

By the way.
行く can be used with particle を, but in this case, it doesn’t express direct object, but a movement through something. You can see を used like this with movements verbs like 行く、飛ぶ etc.

Example: とりは空飛ぶ。
The birds fly through skies.

I’m not in the programming part of the team, but it has been done on purpose :+1:

Notice that unlike ある、ている generally implies state with intransitive verbs like なる、to become, 太る to gain weight, etc.

I hope it helps a bit,
Cheers!

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Maybe I’m being stupid.

I just want to clarify that I’m thinking right: are the three different 「〜ている」 entries on BunPro all covered by the same entry on this point under 「〜ている2」 in the Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar on page 155?

In its notes section it says:

  1. Actions that can be continued or repeated
  2. Actions that can’t be repeated but have a resulting state
  3. Actions that are related to motion.

I think this grammar point as well as the third part should all be part of the Genki 1 learning path, in chapter 7 just like the first part.

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