ばかりでなく ばかりか - Grammar Discussion

English translation:
not only…but also
as well as

Structure:
Verb + ばかりか / ばかりでなく
Noun + ばかりか / ばかりでなく
いAdj + ばかりか / ばかりでなく
なAdj・な + ばかりか / ばかりでなく

Explanation:
[more formal “not only, but also” pattern than だけでなく]

View on Bunpro

1 Like

田中さんはサッカーばかりでなく水泳も上手です。

Why can’t I say と共に in this case? Both mean “as well as” but when I try と共に, it says it’s wrong.

1 Like

While I don’t think it’s grammatically incorrect, I think it’s quite an important matter of nuance here (which wouldn’t be clear when looking at it purely from the English translation).

When we look up と共に in the DoIJG we see that it is

“a phrase which is used to express the idea that A and B share a common property or do the same thing together, that two things take place at the same time, or that s.o. or s.t. possesses two properties”

So, we could argue that in your example sentence Tanaka shares the common property of being good at both soccer and swimming. And I think this is probably grammatically correct (I don’t dare make guarantees as I’ve used both grammar points REALLY sparingly myself up to now, and I don’t find anything that notes any interchangeability between these grammar points anywhere with a brief cursory look, so I would tread carefully either way).

The reason it is probably marked as “wrong” is due to the important nuance that the sentence carries. There is a bit of surprise, we know that “Tanaka is good at soccer, but did you know that he is (unexpectedly) also a really good swimmer?” (this is the sort of nuance that the sentence carries with it in my mind.) If we were to change it for と共に it would just matter of factedly state that Tanaka is both good at soccer and swimming.

*Note I : This is purely based on a rather quick glance through some books and my own notes, I’d have to take a more detailed look when I have some time to be absolutely sure (but someone else feel free to add on to / correct me in the mean time!).

Note II : The feeling of surprise associated with the grammar point is not directly mentioned here on the site, but does appear in a lot of related entries in the DoB/I/AJG as well as e.g. 【N3文法】<普通形>ばかりでなく【その他にも】 | ちよさんぽ

2 Likes

Thank you! Yeah, I’ve always thought of it with the element of surprise in mind because that’s how it reads in Japanese but since the English translation sounds so matter of fact it made me think of と共に instead of ばかりでなく

Tanaka is good at soccer as well as swimming.

If I recall correctly, there was no yellow clarification to disambiguate the two either so I think that could be improved, assuming I’m not missing anything.

3 Likes

I took a quick look at this in Cram and the yellow nuance hint says
[not only, but also ・ formal pattern]
I think that points you to ばかりでなく because of the translation and because と共に is casual. If you haven’t already done so, I recommend changing your settings so that “Review English” is set to “Always Show Nuance”. For these tricky ones. :slight_smile:

Also, I think the も in the second half of the sentence also makes it less likely to be と共に.

3 Likes

Instead of filing a direct bug report, since this issue involves more than one grammar point, I thought I’d post the issue here. Also can get community feedback on it.

I’m just learning this grammar point via the BunPro N3 deck ordering.

In the Caution box at the bottom, it says:

Although this grammar point ばかりでなく(N3 Lesson 6: 10/24) is seemingly referencing the earlier grammar point だけでなく (N4 Lesson 8: 15/18), both of the links in the Caution box actually link to a later grammar point, namely
だけでなくて~も (N3 Lesson 6: 12/24).

I believe this mismatch happened because both of the example sentences used in this Caution box are instances of the だけでなくて~も grammar pattern. However, that doesn’t seem to be essential to the purpose of the Caution.

I see some different possible resolutions off the top of my head:

  1. Leave the in-text links to だけでなくて~も, but update the text to match the linked grammar point.
    • Also, probably reorder these grammar points in the BunPro order, so that だけでなくて~も comes before ばかりでなく.
  2. Change the in-text links to point to だけでなく to match what the text says. And
    • Either leave the example sentences as using the だけでなくて~も pattern. But in this case, the grammar links within the example sentences currently link to だけでなく, so …
      • … Either leave these in-sentence links as they are, since it’s not really a big deal.
      • … Or change the in-sentence links to point to だけでなくて~も, since technically that is the pattern being used. (But maybe this is still a little confusing since だけでなくて~も comes after ばかりでなく, and hasn’t been mentioned in the text :thinking:)
    • Or simply modify the example sentences (just by removing the も?) so they are not using the だけでなくて~も pattern, but just the simple だけでなく pattern. No need to reorder anything, no need to link to (or even mention) だけでなくて~も at all.

Also, there’s another issue with this grammar point’s text:

In the About section, all four example use the augmented pattern ばかりでなく, with the extra は thrown in there. I’m not sure why all four sentences would need to use ではなく instead of just でなく, since this point is described mainly in terms of でなく.

However, it’s possible that the original intention was to have, say, two sentences using でなく, and then another two using ではなく, with some text in between explaining the different nuance. I say this because there is already text after the four sentences saying:

Perhaps the resolution could be:

  1. Change the first two (or three, or whatever) sentences so that they only need/use でなく.
  2. Move the paragraph talking about negations of だ in between the two sets of example sentences, introducing the idea of the emphasis caused by adding は.
  3. Possibly modify the remaining sentences to make it more clear how using は (i.e. ではなく) adds emphasis to them (via the English translation).

P.S. The text says “Like all other grammar points that negate だ, several forms may be seen. でなく, でなくて, ではなく, ではなくて, じゃなく, じゃなくて”. However, I don’t recall this detail having been discussed in any previous grammar point. Perhaps I just missed it? Can anyone point out where this has previously been mentioned in the BunPro order of grammar points?

For some reason, I’ve long had the feeling that でなく(て) is somehow significantly different (somehow) from ではなく(て). However, it’s just a feeling, and I don’t really know how significant the difference really is. This text seems to be saying that (at least for the purposes of this particular grammar point) there really isn’t much difference at all. :thinking: ?

Is there any grammar point that makes this inclusion/exclusion of は clear as to what it means, when it comes to ‘negations of だ’? If not, could we maybe get one? I’d certainly be interested to learn the real difference! :smiley: