他に(も)・他(に)は - Grammar Discussion

[Jake]

other・another
any other・anything else
as well as・besides・in addition

1.他 + の + Noun
2.(この/あの/その +) 他 + に/にも/も/には/は、
3.Noun + の + 他 + に/にも/も/には/は、
4.Verb + 他 + に/にも/も/には/は、
5.(この/あの/その +) 他 + に/には/は、+ Negative
6.Noun + の + 他 + に/には/は、+ Negative
7.Verb + 他 + に/には/は、+ Negative**

1 他A means: other A
2-4 AほかB mean in addition to A/besides A, B
5-7 means nothing but/not~ other than/ not except for A. この/あの/その can be skipped if it is clear what speaker/writer is referring to. 2-7 can be used without following particle in formal writing
他に/にも/も/には/ all mean mostly the same thing. Though は has a stronger tendency to appear in negative sentences so try to not use it in affirmative ones, 他にも/他も doesn’t appear with negative sentences and この他 is used with nearby things.

ほかにも cannot be used in negative sentences with the exception of questions 外 is another way to write ほか

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Additional Information
Further Breakdown

[Sidgr]

Am I the only one who this think grammar point could use some refinements. I am not sure what the solution would be in particular but I find that this grammar point is particular is not very sticky and maybe the different aspects could be broken up into multiple grammar points as others have.

[Embry92]

I have to agree. The structure breakdown is overwhelming. As you said, perhaps splitting it into multiple lessons would be better.

[CrisH]

One of the example sentences is “Anything else?”, which I got wrong guessing
ほかにも？
but in line with the other comments, I wonder if I could get an explanation of how you can figure out the answer, drawing from the grammar point description. That should help identify the correct one the next time this point comes up in the reviews.

I know reviews are partly to help you learn the points on this site, as well as reviewing what you’ve learned, but you should be in with a fair chance of getting them right and I think this one falls short of the standard set by the others.

[Ambo100]

I definitely agree with the structure for this being overwhelming. I’m not sure about the best way it could be changed though. I might add this:

When to use 他【ほか】の or 他【ほか】に

[CrisH]

The info mentions that “外 is another way to write ほか”. Does that mean 外 can be read as ほか or that you can use そと instead?
Since there are multiple readings for kanji, it could be either.

[nekoyama]

The former. The word ほか can be written with the kanji 外.

As per the second link under Reading and a link in the comments there, there is a difference in nuance. 他 is different from a specific thing. 外 is outside a certain range.

[PowerAWBS]

I’m curious as to whether @Pushindawood and team have seen this.
Among all the things that the Bunpro team is trying to do, this is probably small, but like @Embry92, @Sidgr and @CrisH have said, I think that the breakdown for this grammar point is overwhelming.

Currently, I don’t know enough grammar to know how this could be improved, but one small thing to note is that aligning the breakdown text to the left might help users breakdown the large amount of text more easily.

Crossing my fingers for the Bunpro team to 助ける～

よろしくおねがいたします！

Edit

Probably the most helpful thing on the grammar point page so far is the plethora of example sentences with orange annotations letting me know the nuances and constructions.

Very helpful~

[CrisH]

Since 他は is a phrase and not a usual grammar point, I’m going to use an external SRS to learn that one, and skip over it here. I think the rest generally work with the information given, once you get a feel for them.

[Howl_UK]

I am seriously struggling with this grammar point. I identify that I need to use some form of it but then my answer is usually incorrect. Breaking it into multiple grammar points with their own example sentences would help I think.

[ckadioglu]

No clue what’s going on with this one. I know it’s going to have 他 in it, but what comes after is pure luck/memorization.

[Yryrdz]

I feel relived I’m not the only person completely baffled by this point. I don’t understand why I get the answers wrong at all. Normally I don’t think Bunpro is just memorization of sentences, but in this case that’s literally all it is for me.

[mrnoone]

@Yryrdz @ckadioglu

We realize that the current form of this grammar point is “a bit” overwhelming.
It will be split, and improved in terms of explanations and answers.

Cheers

[Yryrdz]

Thank you so much!

[marlowe]

It’s quite confusing, yes.

[Munzu]

Any news on the update?
I’m very confused and I have no idea when to use 他にも vs. 他には…

[gyroninja]

What part do you not understand?

From the grammar point page / the OP

他に/にも/も/には/ all mean mostly the same thing. However, は has a stronger tendency to appear in negative sentences

他にも/他も doesn’t appear with negative sentences and この他 is used with nearby things.

ほかにも cannot be used in negative sentences with the exception of questions

I’d also recommend reviewing the meaning of は (contrastive) and も (also).

[ollieisamuppet]

I’ve got to say the explanation of this grammar point is really poor.

You start by saying it is “regularly considered to be one of the more difficult structures to master in Japanese”, then go on to give an explanation that does not clear up the confusion in any way at all.

Unlike a lot of people here I don’t think the breakdown itself is too much of a problem, I tend to use the breakdown list as more of a reference than trying to memorise it off the bat. I just think the core explanation of this grammar point is horrible. You give multiple sentences that translate to the same in English but use different variations of 他, without explaining why each type is used. There’s just a general description “Another thing / even another thing / was there another thing” without any elaboration.

I literally feel like I’m having to memorise the answers to each sentence on this grammar point, since there is zero explanation given as to how the grammar works.

Glad I’m not alone on this, but disappointed that Bunpro don’t seem interested in addressing it after 2 years of complaints…

Positive feedback though, the example sentence annotations are useful

[hergimerc]

Until now I’m still confused. Maybe I just skip this grammar point all together.

[Superpnut]

Why isn’t this 他には? Most of the grammar points where you want は cut off the に which the grammar point say it needs. It appears to accept には for the answer but I don’t see anything saying what is the rule for 他には／他は