んだけど・んですが - Grammar Discussion

but…
and…

Structure

  • Phrase + + だけ ( ) (、Phrase2)。
  • Phrase + / + ですが (、Phrase2)。

:warning: Versions without ん/の are also acceptable but sound old-fashioned

[Used when the speaker wants to ask for advice about something, request something, etc.・ ほしい、たい、ようと思う、予定 etc. are often used in Phrase1]

[Phrase2 is often omitted if the speaker feels it might be obvious, too frank (often when refusing or stating an opinion), would cause embarrassment for the speaker or listener(s), etc.]

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In this example sentence is the subject particle が being omitted in between これ and ほしい?

これほしいんだけど(高い)。
I want this, but… (it is expensive).

While I still was able to parse the sentence because of its simple context, does this mean its safe to assume that a particle can be omitted if its clear from the context?

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In casual situations this is sometimes done. Probably best not to omit particles when you’re practicing so you don’t get into bad habits though.

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Ah! thanks again @seanblue!
And yes I agree, best to avoid its use until one is absolutely confident. For now its just nice to be aware that this is a known phenomenon, and not a mistake, nor something else entirely. :stuck_out_tongue:

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There is information about のだ in DBJG page 325

@Ambo100 Hey! We included page 325 of DBJG under んです・のです. Do you think that it needs to be included in this grammar point as well? Cheers.

The example section there includes some uses of んですが, I think it might be worth including.

I just encountered this grammar point. I can tell already that this is one of those areas where I’m at a tremendous disadvantage in learning Japanese because I’m autistic. In all of the example sentences that put Phrase2 in parentheses, I couldn’t even begin to guess the parenthetical form.

Maybe this is part of a broader point: how can I make it easier to grasp what Japanese people are really saying when so much of real Japanese speech is structured around avoiding it?

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@Brand_S
Hey and sorry for the late answer :bowing_man:

Don’t worry about that! The thing that is important is the general idea :blush:
If you hear だけど、ですが and so on at the end of sentence you just need to know that speaker shows “hesitation” to make the sentence more polite.
There are certain common cases when this can happen:

  • when the person is disagreeing with you
  • wants to be polite
  • asks for something
  • refuses a request
  • something is impossible

You will naturally pick up those patterns when you see them enough, so don’t worry and continue your Japanese learning journey :blush:

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Thanks a ton; that makes perfect sense!

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So I just want to make sure here; the only difference between this and just regular だけど/ですが is that the ん/の alludes to a sense of hesitation? Because otherwise I am very confused.

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Am I the only one who finds the way the hints for this grammar super confusing? After a long time of not seeing it, the extra “implied” part of the sentence totally throws me off and I end up getting it wrong, even though I use (maybe overuse) this grammar daily

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I find this english translation very awkward but I’m not sure if it’s only me.

Wouldn’t the english be better with a but… instead of an and… ?
At least it feels more natural

“I would like to buy a new watch but which one would be good?”
vs
“I would like to buy a new watch and which one would be good?”

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Sorry for the ping, but since it’s a muted category, might not get visibility of those who maybe can chip in.

@Asher @mrnoone

Seems, like I’m not the only one who finds confusion on some of the phrases in that grammar point, as also was something @ggw1776 pointed out.

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Hey @Megumin :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

I am going to fix the confusing sentences today.

Cheers :slight_smile:

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Thanks so much! I appreciate it.

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@Megumin

I have improved the translations a bit.

Cheers :slight_smile:

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konotathubmsupexternal-content.duckduckgo.com

Thanks!
Now if I get them wrong feels more like it will be a problem with my brain than just being confused.

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@mrnoone

The questions are updated on the grammar point but on the lesson it still appears like they used to be. Do you know if there’s some sort of weird cache going on?

Today at the hour of this post:

I have a question about the red squared caution information.

" Caution - んだが, or simply だが is probably the ‘strongest’ out of these possibilities, and is considered quite masculine. If you are going to use this form, we recommend making sure that your tone is a bit softer, so that it does not sound too authoritative. "

When it says it is quite masculine does that mean that two men would use that form when talking to each other? Or I guess…what makes it masculine? Would it be rude for a girl to say it or for it to be said to a girl?