Verb[Causative-Passive] - Grammar Discussion

[mrnoone]

Verb[Causative-Passive]

Structure

Verb	Ex. dictionary form	Conjugated	Conjugated short
V(る1)→	見 る →	！見 させられる	ー
V(す)→	話 す →	！話 させられる	ー
V(る5)→	座 る →	座 らせられる	座 らされる
V(う)→	歌 う →	歌 わせられる	歌 わされる
V(く)→	歩 く →	歩 かせられる	歩 かされる
V(つ)→	打 つ →	打 たせられる	打 たされる
V(ぶ)→	飛 ぶ →	飛 ばせられる	飛 ばされる
V(む)→	休 む →	休 ませられる	休 まされる
V(ぐ)→	泳 ぐ →	泳 がせられる	泳 がされる

Irregular Verbs

する→ ！させられる
くる→ ！こさせられる

Explanation
Causative passive is used when someone is unwilling, but is still made to do something. The construction does not have “let do” meaning.
The causative-passive short forms(column 4) are used more often than longer forms(column 3).
Ichidan verbs(る verbs), godan verbs ending with(う verbs with す ending) す and irregular verbs する、くる do not have short forms. Godan verbs ending with る(う verbs ending with る) have the short form.

View on Bunpro

[zeynokiz]

Hi! I’m a little confused as to the conjugation of one of the sentences.

お金出せば、全部払わさせれるよ。

Unless I’m mistaken, shouldn’t the sentence be:

お金出せば、全部払わせられるよ。
OR
お金出せば、全部払わされるよ。

Thank you!

[mrnoone]

Great find! It has been fixed!

Thank you!

[zeynokiz]

Thank you!

[ezhmd]

Hello,
Why is this marked as wrong?

[mrnoone]

Hey!

It is proper Japanese, it should be working now

[s1212z]

Kinda feel this sentence should be in the ‘causative-passive’ category and not ‘causative’ based on the translation. Does this agree?

彼は凄い嫌と言っているが、このパーティーにこさせられた。

[Johnathan-Weir]

For what I understand using causative here makes this spoken from OUR perspective. Whereas, causative-passive would be from HIS perspective. So either could be used depending on what perspective you want to speak from.

[xBl4ck]

Isn’t there (still?) a さ too much in there?

---

This is more a personal opinion, but since Genki teaches the short version as the “more common” version, I’d prefer if that answer was accepted °-°/

[mrnoone]

Isn’t there (still?) a さ too much in there?

Fixed!

This is more a personal opinion, but since Genki teaches the short version as the “more common” version, I’d prefer if that answer was accepted °-°/

You are right! I will make it so!
ーーー
Edit:
All sentences checked, shorter causative-passive forms are accepted everywhere now

[kzkr]

Hey, I’m not sure how commonly used they are, but I’m struggling a bit with understanding how constructs like ～てほしい or ～たい would interact with the Causative-Passive form. I think I understand how they work with the Causative or Passive forms on their own, but it’d be nice to double check those as well.

Does ～たい actually even make sense? Since in the the explanation above it says:

Causative passive is used when someone is unwilling, but is still made to do something.

Regardless, given the example sentence:
「 上司に力仕事をさせられる」
「My boss forces me to do physical labor」

Would these modifications be correct?

Causative-Passive

「 上司に力仕事をさせられたい」
「I want my boss to force me to do physical labor」

「 上司に力仕事をジョンにさせられてほしい」
「I want my boss to force John to do physical labor」

Passive

「 上司に力仕事を頼まれたい」
「I want my boss to entrust me with physical labor」

「上司に力仕事を頼まれてほしい」
「I want my boss to entrust someone else with physical labor (in place of me)」

Causative

「 上司に力仕事をさせたい」
「I want to force my boss to do physical labor」

「 上司に力仕事をさせてほしい」
「I want my boss to force me to do physical labor」

[Daru]

Hey there! Great question @kzkr.

@kzkr

Does ～たい actually even make sense?

Depends on the context and what you want to say. A lot of time in Japanese, even though you can connect two grammar points, it doesn’t mean you should. Even then, I think this makes for an interesting exercise so let’s take a look!

@kzkr

Causative-Passive

「 上司に力仕事をさせられたい」
「I want my boss to force me to do physical labor」

「 上司に力仕事をジョンにさせられてほしい」
「I want my boss to force John to do physical labor」

There read good to me. Kinda funny too.

@kzkr

Passive

「 上司に力仕事を頼まれたい」
「I want my boss to entrust me with physical labor」

I think this use would be ungrammatical.

The translation would be closer to ‘I want to be entrusted physical labor by my boss’, which sounds a bit weird. たい is used to express your own desires (which is why we say 食べたがっている instead of 食べたい when speaking about someone else’s wishes).

Just because it seems like you can grammatically connect two concepts, it doesn’t mean that they work together.

@kzkr

「上司に力仕事を頼まれてほしい」
「I want my boss to entrust someone else with physical labor (in place of me)」

Other than maybe adding the 私の代わりに at the beginning, this one reads fine to me since the volition still lies on your boss entrusting you the physical labor. Since ほしい states that you want someone else to do something, it still matches the use of the passive form. In both instances, your volition is not what is being referred to.

@kzkr

Causative

「 上司に力仕事をさせたい」
「I want to force my boss to do physical labor」

「 上司に力仕事をさせてほしい」
「I want my boss to force me to do physical labor」

These both read well to me!
The second one though feels more like ‘I want my boss to allow me to do physical labor.’

Hope this helps!

[kzkr]

Thanks for the wonderful insight, @Daru!
It definitely helped clear things up a lot.

@Daru

I think this use would be ungrammatical.

The translation would be closer to ‘I want to be entrusted physical labor by my boss’, which sounds a bit weird. たい is used to express your own desires (which is why we say 食べたがっている instead of 食べたい when speaking about someone else’s wishes).

Just because it seems like you can grammatically connect two concepts, it doesn’t mean that they work together.

I do agree that the example sentence I chose ended up sounding a bit weird, but there are cases where Passive Form + たい do work together right? An example I see commonly on Twitter (especially when you hang around certain crowds of otaku ) would be something like this:

「ヨル様に踏まれたい」
「I want to be stepped on by Yor-sama」

@Daru

The second one though feels more like ‘I want my boss to allow me to do physical labor.’

Ah, that does make a lot more sense. When I was initially writing the post I was wondering how to express difference in nuance between Causative-Passive + たい and Causative + てほしい but ended up translating them to the same thing.

[Daru]

Happy to help!
Just stating ○○さんに○○られたい definitely works as in you want to be done something by someone. From this perspective, I don’t think the sentence is ungrammatical.

@kzkr

踏まれたい

This word certainly gets you results on Twitter, that’s all I’m going to say.

(You learn something everyday. )

[Dsingis]

I wonder, which form is more common in day-to-day japanese? 歩かせられる or 歩かされる ?

My Genki textbook said, that both are “grammatical”, but the shorter form 歩かされる is much more common. Yet in Bunpro I see no such comment, and all the example sentences use the long form. Also Togofu only teaches the longer form al well.

[Fuga]

Hey there! 歩かせられる is the more grammatical way of saying it, but 歩かされる is used in speech because it is a little easier to say. However, I feel like they are both equally as common since some people might prefer one over the other. Personally, speaking from a native perspective, I would used 歩かせられる when writing, but will use 歩かされる when I’m talking.

[simias]

Thank you for this very useful precision!

I wish Bunpro would have dedicated grammar entries to practice these common shortenings.

Another one that trips me up often in a different genre is 〜れば → 〜りゃ.

[Flaviovleal]

Why does this one end with ら? I can’t understand why it isn’t させられた

[nekoyama]

Because it’s asking for “Hypothetical” at the top. See the たら grammar point.

[Flaviovleal]

Thanks, haven’t got to lesson 8 yet!